(Music)

The Joe Rogan Experience

Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night

All day

(Music)

Nice to meet you

Great to meet you man

It's weird me to see someone in so many fucking movies

and then you meet him in real life

Like, okay, this is a regular person

Right there

Yeah, it's staring me in the face

Right there

He just took a leak

(Laughing)

Dude, you've been in some fucking Banger movies man

It's like, you've had an incredible career

Yeah, pull that sucker up

Yeah, pull it towards me

Yeah, it's very good

Yeah, it's been a long, strange trip

It's been a wild one, huh?

Yeah

When did you start acting?

How old were you?

All right

So, um, like, 12 years old

I don't have a winter sport

My mother doesn't know what to do with me

And my next door neighbor

He lived like four houses down

And he took an acting class

At the Paul Robeson Center of Performing Arts

And so my mother signed me up

So that I could get picked up by his mom

You know, taken to acting class in the winter

And get dropped off

You know, and be at home

And I went there

And this head of a local theater company

Came by to teach in improv seminar

Kind of saying, "I'm having 12 years old, right?"

And afterwards in the parking lot, he said, "Hey, you want to be in a play?"

And I said, "What do you mean?"

And he said, "I got a part of a guy who's a knight."

He gets to have a sword

And I said, "Will I have any lines?"

He said, "You'll have one line."

I said, "All right, cool."

And I asked my mom, and she said, "Do I have to pay?"

You know, and I said, "I don't think so."

I think they're going to pay me.

So I went and I did this play

And it was George Bernard Shaw's Saint Joan

At the Macartus Theater in New Jersey

And it was a real play

Yeah, it was a proper play

And it was an incredible experience to be honest with you

Because my parents hated their jobs

You know, they would go to work

And their life happened on the periphery of their employment

And my mom would take the train to New York

And so she wouldn't get home till 730

Something she would leave at dawn

And she was as miserable at work

I mean, and I went to this rehearsal

And everyone was having

They were talking about whether or not God existed

They were talking about what they believed in

They would dress up in these crazy outfits

And then we did the play

And they got a standing ovation

And it was so much fun

And it was the first time I saw this

I was like, "You could do this for a living?"

You know, a lot of the actors aren't people you've heard of

Or anything like that

But they were real actors

And they loved their job

And the rehearsal room was so kind of thrilling

Watching them figure out where people should stand

And what was important and what was the scene about

And what was the theme of the play

And how could this scene fit in with the larger context

And I just decided that's what I wanted to do

And a lot of kids want to act

So that doesn't mean very much

But through this other friend of mine

I started hearing about open casting calls in New York

And I asked my mom if I could go on some of these big auditions

And again, she said, "Is it going to cost me any money?"

She said, "If I paid for my own train fare, I could go to these auditions."

And so I took some polaroids

And went on a few of these big auditions

And I got one of them

And it was for this big

In 1984, it was a $30 million movie

Directed by the guy who just done "Gremlins"

Right, Joe Dante

And I thought I was a made man

It was absolutely incredible

To be sucked out of suburban America

And brought to LA, my first scene partner was River Phoenix

And all of a sudden, I'm in LA

And my mom couldn't quit her job or anything

So my mom had a really turbulent relationship with her mother

But her mother and she didn't really know each other

And so her mother said she'd be my guardian

And my mom designed this as a way to maybe have a family healing

But my grandmother was a piece of work

And we lived together in Koreatown

That's what they called it

And it was wild

And I remember we drove into the Paramount Studios

You know, you can picture the image from the Godfather

And you had the big gates

And my grandmother had always wanted to be a movie star

Wow

You know, and she was from here, she's from Austin, Texas

Well, really for worth

But, you know, she would talk about going to see Gone with the Wind

At the Paramount here in Austin, you know

And she would watch Gone with the Wind three times a week

And she had dreamed of being a movie star

And I remember we were in a big van

Driving me to set the first day

And we went through the gates of Paramount opening up

And we were just smoking an Eve cigarette

In the van, of course, it's 1984

And she's just like, you know, my first time in Hollywood

As a fucking guardian

Pooh, you know

And so, the whole child actor thing was a trip

And I finished the movie and there's a lot of drama

Evolved in that five was to complete that story

But I finished it

The movie was a big turkey

How old were you at the time?

2014

River and I were both 14

But see, we look so young in that picture, right?

But you gotta understand, you know, when you're that age

You think you're dying to be 18, dying to be 16

We went off River and I stole a pack of camel cigarettes

Because we both wanted to be like James Dean

And we had a lot of fun

That's the truth

But the movie came out and I remember River and I

Going to the bathroom at the premiere

And we'd grown a lot

From the time we shot the movie

To the time it came out

And nobody in the bathroom really recognized us

And they were all talking about what a turkey the movie was

Terrible was

And I remember just looking in the eyes

It wasn't the narrative we thought

You know, we'd bought into the dream

That, you know, we were gonna be

Whatever teen icon we were thinking of at the time

And um

And it died a quick and salty death my dream

And I went back to high school

And put away my dream of being an actor

It seemed like it was this isolated

Almost like

Choose your own adventure book or something

Where I got to see what Hollywood was like

But then have it denied

It kinda like putting your hand on flame, it was not a good feeling when it was over

And then, you know, four years or so went by

And I graduated high school

And I was off at college and I heard about these auditions

From a movie called Dead Poets Society

And I hated college

I was miserable

And I thought I'll take the bus in

And I'll go on one of these open casting calls again

And if I get the part, this is what I decided

If I get the part, I'll do that

And if I don't get the part, I'll join the Merchant Marines and be like Jack London

That was my fantasy at the time

I remember calling my sister and saying, "All right, there's seven parts."

This is how dumb I was

I was like, "There's seven parts. If I don't get one of those, I must suck."

You know, so it's not true at all

But I ended up getting one of them

And I dropped out of college

And the success of Dead Poets Society sent me

You know, it was like a trajectory

It shot me down a different course of water than I was on before

It's probably a much better path than the first film being successful

And you become a child star

I cannot tell you how grateful I am for that first experience

First of all, if for no other reason than

It wasn't going to be worth it.

It gave me a little bit of ballast to handle the success of this.

You went into it for the enjoyment of doing it.

I had no expectations, but I was certain I wasn't going to be a star.

I was positive of it.

I saw it as a way to make some money and maybe learn about writing and learning about film

And a way to get out of college, what happened is when I got there, I met all these other young men

who were in love with acting.

And I started watching movies with them and talking about movies with them and seeing the light in their eyes.

And we'd go to set and there was Robin Williams.

We had Peter Weer who had just directed witness, one of my favorite movies of all time at that point.

And he was a master.

I mean, he was not a lightweight human being, he was a heavyweight human being.

And he would lead rehearsals and he would talk about acting and performance in a way that I hadn't...

I heard people talk about it that way when we were doing St. John when I was doing the...

He talked about it like we were making art and like we were on a mission beyond successor failure.

And it was an invitation to a lifestyle, a life commitment.

And what I didn't realize at the time, that's what that movie is about too.

So the movie itself is a guided meditation on Carpe Diem.

It's a meditation on Gather E. Rosebud's Wally May.

I sound my barbaric yop over the rooftops of the world.

This is kind of stuff that I was getting inundated with in rehearsal.

And so that was... I didn't... I wouldn't have told you that on the day I wrapped Dead Poets Society that my life had changed.

But looking back it had...

Did it planted the seeds?

Yeah. I was thinking...

I've never met a person who became famous at 14, who came out of it okay.

I'm of yet to. I heard Jody Foster School.

I never met anybody that became famous very young.

I read every interview she does for exactly that reason.

I have... It's so difficult.

I tell parents all the time, like children acting is a wonderful thing.

Put them in the school play. It's so good for them.

Get them singing lessons. It's so good for them.

Singing the church choir. It's so good for them.

But to be a professional actor at a young age is...

It's dangerous in extremely insidious ways that are very, very hard to perceive when it's happening.

That's a great way to put it.

Yeah. I think it completely impedes your developmental process.

The way I like them to is concrete.

When you make concrete, there's a bunch of very specific ingredients.

You put them with very specific mixture.

Like you have to have this amount of water, that amount of sand, this amount of rocks,

if it's off, it's never fixed.

You can't add water after it's cured.

It's done. It's fucked forever.

This is bad concrete now.

This is what happens to a lot of young human beings that become famous.

Whether it's through acting or singing...

Yeah, and it's not just fame.

That analogy works for all walks of life, really.

If you have something really traumatic happens in childhood.

It's very hard to recover.

It's a tremendous amount of work to recover.

And I agree with you.

I think celebrity is like...

It's like a tiny drop of mercury or it's poison.

It's poison for your brain.

Now, if you're mature, you can handle it.

And if you get it in slow...

I got it in slow increments.

Dead Poets Society happened to have a little taste of fame, but I wasn't...

Nobody knew my name.

You could go to restaurant.

Yeah, I was that kid from Dead Poets Society.

I mean, blah, blah, blah.

And I got it in slow...

I got to develop what he would call it when you...

You get a little bit of poison, like a resistance.

Yeah, resistance to it.

And it came so slowly for me.

I even think about people...

I remember...

The weekend pretty woman came out...

Two days before, no one had ever heard of Julie Roberts.

Two days after, she was the most famous woman in America.

I think that's a huge thing to absorb.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

And I know that my personality couldn't have handled it.

I've worked hard to handle it as poorly or well as I have, you know?

Yeah.

It's...

I think you're going back to school and living a normal life for, you know, five, six years,

whatever it was before you left college.

That's...

I just think that's critical.

That's the developmental process of the normal maturation of a person

when they go through adolescence, teenage years, into college, young adults.

Then you can kind of handle things.

And then maybe you're also fortunate that, like you said,

dead poet society, not, you know, you didn't get too huge from it.

You just got some juice.

A little bit of juice.

A little bit of confidence.

Yeah.

It's like something's happening.

Something's happening.

But then I had the years after that, though, you know,

I have to give some shout out to my mom, who was just so devastated that I dropped out of college.

I mean, she just couldn't stop crying about it, you know?

And it filled me with a desire to show her that I was taking responsibility

for my own education, which is what I said I would do.

And so I started a theater company and I worked really hard at a lot of different things,

writing and reading and thinking.

And mostly with the theater company where I met a lot of young people who were interested in what I was doing.

But we weren't paid any money and we worked our asses off and we built sets.

And we, you know, it was fun.

I don't want to lie.

We had a great time.

But it was a college experience that I gave myself through the theater company.

And that changed me because I met a lot of people who were really excellent at what I do that weren't making a lot of money.

I met a lot of people who loved it as much as I do, who weren't getting their picture taken,

who weren't being told they were special.

I knew how gifted they were.

I could understand.

I had a little bit of balance and a little bit of humility to go along with the superficial elements of my chosen field.

Do you all think about what would have happened if that guy didn't invite you to do that play when you were 12?

It's kind of crazy how there's just pivotal moments in your life.

You know, he just died.

Nagel Jackson was his name.

And he was a great theater director.

I mean, I don't know if you feel this way.

I don't know what I have the sense often.

And I know this sounds really dopey to say, but I sometimes have a sense of a guardian angel of some kind.

Why did this guy talk to me in the parking lot?

And why was he such a kind decent human being?

Throughout my life, I have had opportunities presented to me.

And I had enough intuition and enough intelligence maybe to follow it.

But I do think about it all the time.

All the ways that are imperceptible in the Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday that they happen.

But where your life is kind of guided.

And it doesn't really feel by your own doing.

Yeah, I know it sounds like you say, but I believe it too.

I mean, I don't publicly profess it as the definite reason why everything happens.

But there's a bunch of, I think most people that have gotten anywhere in life.

There's moments in their life. How did that happen?

Why did this feel like it was a destined path?

Why was I compelled to try this?

What was the thought behind that?

Am I being guided? Is fate real?

I wonder how other people feel.

I do think one of the keys, I think that probably everybody has a path that is there for them.

And the trick about knowing yourself, the value in taking time to like be still with yourself.

And listen to yourself.

You know that there's an expression, the voice of our spirit is extremely gentle.

It's difficult to hear it. It's quiet.

But if you can hear it, that thing intuition, that thing, the path, the idea of a guardian angel,

you can see what's happening around you if you're in touch with yourself.

And if you're not in touch with yourself, you keep tripping on the same.

You're not seeing the angles and the roads that might be available to you.

So I do think that part of the trick is taking time to actually get to know yourself

so that you can see the light when it appears.

Because I bet you everybody hasn't.

I bet they do too.

I bet there's also a real factor in recognizing the misery of your mother's life,

what she was doing where she didn't take these chances.

She had responsibility.

Yeah, but can I tell you something funny about that?

Yeah. This type of the year when life ramps up and demands more of your energy, more work,

She joined the Peace Corps in her mid-40s.

Once I was okay, and it was right around the time my oldest Maya was born.

Is she a single child?

Yeah, yeah.

And I think I was a big part of her on her brain a lot, worrying.

It was a big, is this kid going to be all right?

Is this kid going to be all right?

It makes a lot of noise in your head.

Sure.

And I was all right.

And she looked around, and I remember her saying that, you know, if an accident happened

today, when they do happen, and I died, I would be extremely disappointed in myself.

She was probably, I don't know, 46 or something when she said this younger than I am now.

And she said, I don't want to be disappointed in my life.

So she joined the Peace Corps, which she wasn't all that impressed with.

But they sent her to Romania, and she fell in love with Romania, and she fell in love with the people there.

And she got obsessed with the racism against the Gypsy culture, the Roma culture, I'm supposed to call it.

And it reminded her a lot of growing up here in the 60s, in the racism she saw as a young girl.

And she just decided to do something about it.

She's been 25 years there, and she got thousands of kids into school who wouldn't have gone to school.

She just recently retired back to Fort Worth.

And she's a different woman than the woman I grew up with, which is I think a remarkable story.

I loved both the women, the woman now, and the woman I grew up with, I don't want to paint some portrait that she was miserable.

She had so much, she was miserable at work.

You know, she was not a miserable person to be with, the opposite.

And she kept that fire in herself alive enough to when the window presented itself, she took it hard.

I mean, she disappeared for a quarter of a century to Romania.

She was a young woman born in Fort Worth, right?

And that's a wild thing to do. And she made a huge impact.

And I'm extremely proud of her and proud of the work that she's done.

And so is everybody who knows her.

And now she's in Fort Worth doing her thing and has a different sense of herself because she followed her own intuition and her own path.

It just, she had a deal with the responsibility of raising a child for a long time.

Yeah, well, that develops a different kind of character, too.

You know, the character of a woman trying to raise a child, and also a boy.

You know, I have all daughters.

You do. Yeah.

And three daughters and one boy.

Yeah.

All my friends have boys like, dude, it is so much harder.

You're just trying to keep them from burning the house down.

Yeah, it was a pain. Of course. Of course. Of course. And if you're a single child, you know.

But I, she must have gotten some inspiration from your path, from your choices.

On one deck that you went for.

You'd have to ask her.

I think she had in her own way went for it because everybody told her not to have a baby and she wanted to.

And she didn't want to run with the pack.

No, she didn't. I think when you're 18, you don't understand the ramifications of the decision of having a child.

Right.

You know, how, you know, permanent.

You know, I remember she told me when Maya was born, well, congratulations.

You know, you know, you know, have something to worry about the rest of your life.

You know, yeah, I think it's a gift, though.

I mean, I certainly think it changes your human being.

In my case, the most positive way is possible.

I could imagine being a single mother, though.

It's a much more difficult position to be in.

And there's a lot of pressure on women, you know.

Sure.

You know, if you work, you're a bad mother.

If you're just to stay at home mom, you're not a good, strong woman.

You know, I mean, they're damned if they do. They're damned if they don't. That's the position they get put in.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it's all those experiences when as an actor, I mean, one of the more fascinating things to me about watching people is how they can assume different identities.

Like, and how critical is it to have had so many different people in your life and different life experiences to draw from, to try to understand things through their eyes?

If you're a regular person running through, if you're a stockbroker, you're running through the world thinking like a stockbroker.

You know, you're not thinking, what would it be like to be a janitor?

What does it like to be this guy who's trying to raise a family and he's got a drug dealer in his neighborhood that's causing problems in your life as a constant state of drama?

Like, you're drawing from all these different experiences.

You know, having had, like, not, I mean, I wouldn't say it's, your life was complicated, but it sounds like you have a really good mom.

But complicated, like, and not necessarily that stable in that way.

You're young and you're, you know, you're trying this thing out and you're going off to Hollywood and then you're coming back and going to college, like having all these different bizarre interactions with people in life experiences.

How much do you draw upon that when you're trying to like create a character?

Well, that's a really big question.

It is.

Well, I still have to break it into parts.

It's starting getting bigger as I was asking.

Yeah, because it's kind of two parts.

But the first part about drawing on a character is touching on my favorite aspect of my life and my job.

Most people, if you're an actuary, you're an actuary.

You think in numbers, you think in this, this is, and it's your job, you have to.

I have, I got to play a World War II vet.

I got taken out to basic training.

I got to read World War II veterans journals over and over again.

I got to wear the clothes they wore.

I was working on that movie for a few months, reading all kinds of books, watching documentaries about that.

Then that movie's over.

Moving on.

Now, I'm going to get cast as an LA cop, going to do ride-arounds through Los Angeles in the backseat of a cop car,

when the crash unit thing was happening.

I'm thinking like a cop.

It's different than being a journalist and writing about it.

I'm really trying to imagine being them.

I'm not looking at it from a judgmental point of view.

I don't have an agenda about whether they're a good person or a bad person or whether this army sergeant

should have made that decision or that.

When I'm thinking why did he make it?

Why did he make it?

Why did he do that?

I played jazz musician, a drug addict.

I'm not sitting there judging him or what a bad person.

I'm thinking why do you do it?

It's a pain killer, why is he taking it?

Where's this music come from?

Why is it so important to him?

Why does he practice 12 hours a day?

What is that about?

All these characters are these invitations to expand your own sense of what identity means.

Who is Joe Rogan?

And who Joe Rogan is with his mom is a little different than he's watching the Super Bowl with his best friends.

Joe Rogan is at 40s, different than he is at 20.

We have inside of us so many aspects to ourselves.

When you're in love, you change.

When you see your child for the first time, you change.

Your biology, your chemical starts to shift a little bit.

If you're in a violent situation, your molecular structure alters a little bit.

And you start to realize that that's not you, and that's not you, and that's not you, they're all you.

And that's what performing is like.

And you start to see society and see yourself and see a continuity that is really kind of exciting.

If you don't get ruined by breaking your arm, patting yourself in the back or something like that.

I've met a bunch of older actors who've lived really interesting lives that I've learned.

It's like I once had dinner with Vanessa Redgrave, this old English actress.

She spent her life doing Shakespeare and check-off and Beckett and Tennessee Williams.

She spent her life with some of the greatest minds of the last 50 years.

And she carries that with her.

And she's powerfully intelligent and powerfully humble woman.

And it's like being next to somebody you really admire, you know, a master craftsman.

It doesn't matter what the craft is when you take it to a high level.

It has a lot to teach you.

So anyway, that was a multi-part question.

The other thing that part of your question is how did I stay balanced?

A lot of it had to do with my father, who has...

He doesn't care about celebrity.

He doesn't particularly think it's very interesting and not in a judgmental way.

He really cares about integrity and whether you're a good person or whether you tell the truth.

And it doesn't...it's not that interesting to him how much money you make.

That's not where his value system is placed on, whether he's naturally suspicious of people who want too much attention.

Naturally suspicious of that in me, which was good for me.

It was a good suspicion.

It's a healthy suspicion.

Yeah.

He was very realistic about the chances I had of making a profession out of this.

That's not a bad thing.

You know, everybody says it's so great to tell people to follow your dreams.

And it is important to follow your dreams.

But it's also important to be realistic and have a plan and take care of yourself.

And when you say you're going to do something to do it, to show up when you're asked, to tell the truth, all these things that...

So, whenever things would start to go well, I had this person in my life that's very important to me, who doesn't place a value on anything superficial.

And when we talked about why it's so hard to meet young people in this profession who make it,

what starts to happen regardless of how good or not good your parents are or something.

Your circle can get infiltrated with a lot of people trying to make money off you.

And that's dangerous, because they don't care about you.

Yeah, that is an issue.

There's an issue of people trying to get you to take work that you really shouldn't take, just because they're going to get a percentage of it.

Or it's going to be good for you in the next three years, but they don't have your long term.

What is going to be good for the 65-year-old version of you?

Like you said, yeah, if I could have decided my life, explorers would have been a huge hit.

It would have been ET big.

And you know what, I wouldn't be here on this talk show today.

You know, so I don't want to be in charge of my whole life in that way.

Maybe you would, but it would be different.

You'd be coming out of rehab.

Oh, for sure.

I'd be in Charlie Sheen's door.

Yeah, dude, I'd be on Marriage 18.

Oh, by the way, it was a fantastic guy to talk to.

I bet he was, yeah, listen to it.

It was fantastic.

Wonderful guy, like a sweetheart of a guy, a guy who went through the exact opposite of what I'm saying is good for you.

If you survive, anything is a learning tool.

Right.

I mean, you must have this.

Some of the wisest people I know have been through the 12-step program.

And so addiction and misery can be an unbelievable teacher if you can, if you pull yourself out of it.

If you survive.

If you survive.

It's not, I wouldn't wish it for my children.

It's not a dare.

I want them to take.

Oh, hey, one path to wisdom is terrible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A lot of my friends died from it, but a couple of them are really wise from it.

And I read a book, okay?

It's a, I remember, it's funny even as you said, I remember when I was about 24 starting to get successful.

I met my friend Richard Linklater.

And we were hanging out in New York and we met this really cool.

This guy we really admired, fancy pants, writer, really badass.

You know, you're kind of just, and we were smoking cigarettes.

Well, Rick was, of course.

But we're shooting pool and this guy said to me, you know what?

You're almost interesting.

He said to me, you know, you got to do this.

You go, you got to go down to Mexico and disappear for a couple of years.

You know, live life a little bit.

And you'll be somebody.

And the guy, finally, when the night we're walking home with Rick and Rick said,

let me tell you what you don't need to do.

[laughter]

Why don't you read some William Burrows.

That might be a good idea.

Read some Hunter S. Thompson.

Skip the addiction path.

You know, learn what--

You don't have to, you don't have to do it.

You know, you don't need to, that's not the path to wisdom.

Right.

You know, it has worked for a handful of people.

But most of us, you know, I keep coming back in this conversation with Jody Foster

and much I'm--

I read her interviews because I admire 'cause I know what she survived.

Right.

But she's wicked smart.

Yes.

You know, you don't want to, you don't want to place your bet that you're as smart as she is.

Yeah, she's smart and also wise.

That's the odd thing.

Someone who was in, like how old was she in taxi driver?

12, 14.

Crazy.

And it's a very bizarre movie for a young child to be sexualized in this very weird psychotic

movie.

But what she took from it was this great mentor and Martin Scorsese.

She kind of understood she was making art.

That's where the wisdom comes in.

She's just naturally, precociously wise that way.

That she didn't get hung up on the--

the fame or the CD aspects or the sexuality aspects of it.

She got hung up on, who's this guy, Martin Scorsese?

What is he doing?

What is this movie saying?

How could I be a part of that?

You know, and that's why I think she survived.

But I don't know the woman, so I shouldn't speak.

Yeah, I don't know her either, but I do admire her when I hear her talk.

Yeah, me too.

And that's why I always bring her up as the lone example that I've ever come across

with someone who's been through childhood stardom that seems to be, like, very well

and put together.

Yeah, and she's still really good at her job.

Yeah.

Right, yeah.

It's like that to me--

That to me is really exciting.

You know, see, if you're me, you're, like, I look at Jeff Bridges a lot too.

So you're, like, when Dead Poets Society came out, I went--

I remember I went in this long talk with myself.

I was, like, Sunrise.

And I'd been up on night.

And it was New York, I was about 19 or something.

And I was just thinking about who had gone through this that I actually admire

when I look at them and admire.

And Jeff Bridges had starred in the last picture show, which was one of my favorite movies,

and he was amazing at it.

And he just slowly got better and better and better and better.

And I was like, all right, so it can be done.

You know, this-- you know, he's got an amazing wife.

He's really super into Buddhism. I started getting like, what is he really into photography?

Like, he takes-- I mean, I don't know him either, right?

So I'm just-- I'm talking like a fan here.

It's not-- I don't know these people.

But I watched him from afar.

I was like, OK, this race can be won.

And I've always thought-- I remember I was so happy.

He won the Academy Award for True Grid, I guess it was.

And I was like, damn, what a long slow burn he had.

And he just keeps getting better and more interesting.

And he comes out these weird little books I love, and I read them.

And he writes books?

Yeah, he has this book with his-- like, he has a mentor in Buddhism.

And they kind of wrote a book together about the dow of the dude or something like that.

But it's actually-- you know, I don't know if you've read the dow of Willie.

I love all these kind of-- to the left versions of-- sometimes I find it hard to read the--

I want to read what Willie thinks about the Dumpada.

More than I want to read the Dumpada myself.

Yeah, there it is.

Yeah, the dude in the Zen Master.

It's a great book, by the way.

He has a mantra in it that I just love, which is, "Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream."

"Marily, marily, marily, life is but a dream."

And he talks about how valuable that song has been to him.

I'm probably misquitted, but it meant a lot to me.

And it's just like, one step at a time.

One step at a time.

Keep a smile on your face.

You know, don't forget it's all a dream.

It's like it's a great mantra.

It is.

And it's always great to have someone who has gone through it all and has come out fascinating, interesting, and wise.

So you go, "Oh, it can be done."

Did you ever meet Chris Christofferson?

No.

He was cool.

Yeah.

Well, my secret fantasy is your job, you know.

I wrote a profile on Chris, I don't know, 15 years ago now, for Rolling Stone Magazine.

I made a documentary about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward.

And I just finished a documentary about Merle Haggard.

And I really enjoy studying other people.

But Chris, you know, his life stories.

You know what I mean?

He was in the military, and then he gave up.

Everything became a songwriter.

It's kind of like, imagine if, you know, the equipment is like, the point of height of his career.

It's like imagining if Brad Pitt had also written a number one single for Amy Winehouse.

You know what I mean?

I mean, you know, he wrote me and Bobby McGee for Janice Joplin.

Yeah, you know, oh, yeah.

Wow.

And he was, you know, a helicopter pilot, and he wrote songs for Johnny Cash.

And he was acting in Sam Peckin' Paul movies.

He was a blade.

Yeah, he was in blade.

But he was a real, he's a Rhodes scholar and a boxer.

He would like this guy.

He would be right up your alley.

He was a real free thinker and didn't trap himself in any way of thinking.

And really fought for individual rights.

And he was a great guy.

I got to interview him.

And he actually starred in my first movie I directed, too.

So I got to know him.

What was that?

It's a movie called Chelsea Walls.

I don't necessarily recommend you watch it.

You can.

If you want to, I learned a lot of making it.

I like it a lot, but I was learned, you know, I was learning a lot.

But Chris was in it and he was amazing.

Yeah, having known people like that is so beneficial in your life.

They're not just like inspirational.

It's like a mental fuel, a type of nutrient almost.

So having a person that you know exists that's been through something has come out amazing

and is so not tied down to any one specific identity has varied interests,

pursues them all with passion.

Having mentors.

Yes.

It's like, you know, how are you going to be a samurai if you don't know a samurai?

Right.

You know, and you got to see the way they tie their shoes.

You got to see the way they make dinner.

You don't just got to see the fancy sword play.

That stuff is hard earned.

And so I'm not scared of that.

You know, you don't have to hear a worship people.

You don't have to turn them into deities.

They're human beings.

But when you get to experience and see that people like, oh, you don't have to lie.

I knew a guy once who didn't lie.

You know, you don't have to back down when somebody says that.

I watched the person up.

You can be a good parent.

You can have your parents, your children say, I love my dad.

It's not going to come easy.

But it can be done.

And so I like heroes.

I have no, I like, I also like seeing older people.

You know, there's not the fixation on the 23 year old James Dean.

You know, but a fixation on, you know, the 72 year old Chris Christopherson.

You know, you know, pick whoever yours are.

There's, you know, Muhammad Ali.

I mean, there's so many amazing people that you can say like, wow,

life was not always a picnic for them.

How did they handle it?

And then you cannot be, you know, too upset when life's not a picnic for you.

You can just ask yourself, how did you handle it?

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with really appreciating people.

That concern of hero worship is legitimate.

Because I think there are some people that will take a person and change who they are

and make them not just extraordinary, but not even human.

Yeah, that's a mistake.

It is a mistake, but it doesn't mean you can't love and deeply appreciate who they actually are, flaws and all.

Because that's what we all are.

And when someone is extraordinary and they have gone through so much,

or they have expressed so much and they do resonate with you so much,

that's a valuable person. And you should treat them like they're a valuable person.

It's not necessarily hero worship, it's just appreciation.

Yeah, like I'll tell you, I don't know why I just flashed through my brain.

And when I was making this film, Chelsea Wallace,

you have to understand, like, digital video, it just came out.

This movie, this celebration, this Danish film, amazing movie, Thomas Vinterberg directed it.

And it just kind of changed the rules.

The camera was cheap.

Like, movies that were always so expensive to make.

And now you could just, and I was like, all right, I want, I made this movie for $100,000 in 2000.

And I was like, all right, we're just going to play with this new camera.

And I talk Chris Christofferson into being, he was my hero.

And he agreed to do it. I couldn't believe it.

You know, he shows up on the set.

And I had this elaborate shot I had planned.

I'd found this apartment that was amazing.

I hope this isn't boring, but I think it's a funny story.

So it's my first day with Chris, and I'm really trying to press him, like, I've ripped this shot off from this French film I've seen.

It's amazing. You're going to come into, you're going to, his character orders a bottle of whiskey.

And the guy delivers a bottle of whiskey to the room.

And in my idea, for this apartment, you could walk from the living room into the bedroom,

and from the bedroom to the bathroom, and then out of the bathroom into the kitchen,

and the kitchen opened back up into the living room.

It was one of those New York City square apartments in the Chelsea hotel, right?

And I showed him this path I wanted to take.

And he was going to turn on the lights in this room, and he was going to put on a cowboy hat,

while he's talking on the phone, he's going to look in the mirror and point the thing,

and he's going to walk in the bathroom and flick that light on, and then slam the mirror shut,

and then walk out, and then sit down in the kitchen, right where he was,

pop open the whiskey and pour himself a glass, right as he says the last line of the monologue.

And he looks at me and he goes, "Are you an alcoholic?"

And I was like, "No, not really. I'm an alcoholic."

I said, "Oh, okay." His character's name was Buddy, so he was buds in alcoholic.

So you mean to tell me, "I order a bottle of whiskey. I'm about to fall off the wagon,

and I don't open the fucker until I walk through this room, turn on the light,

turn on the cowboy hat, flip on the light, slam a mirror, and then sit down."

I was like, "Well, I think it would be a great shot."

And he's like, "Eason, there's no way in hell that I can remember all those lines

and do all that that you're asking me. That shot will never work."

So what I think is buds in alcoholic, and he's going to get his bottle,

he's going to open it, and I'm going to sit down, say my monologue, and drink my whiskey.

Okay, great. Let's do that.

There's also the terror of someone you deeply admired, not liking your idea.

Your whole body just shrivels up.

You didn't see the guitar from... I don't give a shit about the guitar film.

There's no way I'm going to remember those lines.

But then to finish it, I'll say, when he wrapped the movie, he was getting...

He said his goodbyes and everything was getting in the elevator to leave.

And I ran out and I said to him, "Hey, listen, you've given so much this whole project."

And I know that. But this whole crew's working for free, right?

And could I beg you, would you come in and sing one song for us just for the crew?

For me, is there any way you'd do that?

Yeah, you got a guitar, and I said, "I do, I do."

So he sat down and he proceeded to tell this elaborate story that I'm sure he's told a thousand times.

But it was such a gift that the roomie sat and told a story about how he met Janice Joplin in the elevator of this very building.

And she fucked me about four minutes later.

And I played her this song, and he busted flat and bad and rude.

Waiting for a train.

I was feeling bad.

In the whole crew, everybody's crying. Everybody's so happy.

He was that giving to everybody and understood what it would mean to this group of young artists.

But he wasn't perfect. He was a real dude with real issues, and I loved him.

Yeah, he was...

I mean, you think about what he did, and all the different songs that he performed, and movies he was in, and different things that he did?

That was an extraordinary life.

Yeah, I'll stop in one second, but for some reason, yeah, I think you'll love this, apparently.

The legend, Johnny Cash used to say that, you know, that song Sunday morning coming down.

I woke up Sunday morning with no way to hold my head that didn't hurt.

In the beer I had for breakfast, it wasn't bad, so I had one more for dessert, great song.

So, Johnny Cash had a number one single out of this song.

And Johnny Cash would tell the story how Chris was flying helicopters offshore oil, and he landed in Johnny Cash's front yard with a beer in one hand, and the song in the other, and his helicopter said, "Damn it, you gotta listen to my song."

And I listened to it and went straight to number one. That's the story that, you know, Cash would tell.

And I asked Chris about it, and he said, "Have you ever flown such and such chopper?" And I said, "No, I haven't."

There ain't no way in hell you can fly that thing with beer in one hand and a cassette in the other.

That story, I don't know where he came up with that story.

He's just trying to help out my career and make a legend out of me too, but no, no, I just sent it to him via air mail.

For a person that watches movies, I've done a small amount of acting, but I'm not good at it.

For a person who watches movies, there's a thing that happens like a hypnosis when someone is a really good actor, where they become that person.

And even though I know it's Ethan Hawke, I know it's Phil in the blank, Daniel Day Lewis, I know who it is, but it's not them at this moment.

They're so good that they've convinced me that they're this other person.

What is that? Because there are moments where I see a good actor, and I say, "I don't believe them."

I think they're phoning it in. They're saying it the right way, but there's just something in the air.

There's a missing connection. And it is the key to a great movie.

The key to a great movie is everybody has to be in that fucking weird zone, that weird zone where you become a different person.

You use the essential word in your first sentence, which is hypnosis. I've spent my life studying what you just talked about.

And when you're acting with Denzel Washington, the power and strength and completeness of his imagination is hypnotizing.

And it's an invitation to join him. And a great film is a collective imaginative experience when you watch The Godfather.

You're not fucking thinking about Al Pacino or James Conn or you think about Michael and Sonny and Tom and Vito.

I remember I watched The Godfather. I feel like I'd see those guys at the Nickgame tomorrow. That's how much you're not thinking about the music. You're not thinking about the shots.

It's all one thing. All these disparate elements turn into one fist. You cannot do it alone.

But the best people I've worked with, it's like the easiest example to show it like for anybody when you go to a concert every now and then it happens.

The performer hypnotizes you and you disappear.

Yeah, you're inside those songs. Yeah, you know, you're not talking about those songs. You're not looking at them. You're not less. You are inside the song. You're inside a dream.

Bad acting for me is glib. Bad acting is commenting on the song. Bad acting is slightly the feeling you're talking about when somebody slightly outside of it. It's very, very hard to do and a lot of people study it and work on it and voice and speech is a huge.

This stuff is very, it's way more interesting to me than it would be to our audience here today. But it's like all these elements of what creates hypnosis. If you were, if we're talking about the violin, there are ways to practice the violin.

And I'm not going to make somebody virtuoso, but I can, if I'm an expert violin pitch, help you be better. And I think the same is true for acting. Acting is an art form. It's beautiful.

It's some weird collage of where performance and writing and all these elements, music, all it's all a part of it. And when it's happening, it's all effortless.

And there's a lot of work you can do to inch it to being easier and to inch your scene partner and to being easier and the ways that they can help you and there's ways that they can ruin it, they can break the dream.

But when it's good, it is like diving into a dream. And it's a feeling that I got for the first time when I was 18 years old, acting in dead poets society.

And it was a feeling. It was seconds long. I mean, it was not much, but a feeling of disappearing. And that's the irony I was at feel about acting is that, you know, people think about actors and they see these pictures in the red carpet or something.

And I think that's what acting is, you know, what it really is, it's a life of it's completely antithetical to that of trying to disappear. It feels like the celebration of the self, the celebration of the personality.

When you're doing a scene with Philip, see more Hoffman, you know, it's not Phil that's talking to you, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, in the cartoon when the, when the eyes go all squirreling and like that.

And then all of a sudden, I'm not me. And if I've done my work right, all of a sudden, I'm saying what's coming out of my mouth is what I prepared.

The way I'm moving is what I'm prepared because and I'm not thinking about it. It's like watching the great athlete when a great athlete is makes it behind the back pass to the guy at the perfect.

He's not thinking, oh, I've got a cool idea. I'm going to throw up behind my back and catch him right as he's in stride. It's years of practice that have let them know that I know where he is because where else would he be?

Right, you know, and things that are at first difficult become easy.

And then you can even get better from there and get better from there. But that's the difference.

People talk about, you know, I love Daniel Delloist too. I think he's kind of the high water mark of my trade.

And you know, you hear these stories about what he does and people say, well, is that what you're supposed to do?

And the thing about when people said method acting is they really don't fundamentally understand what the method is.

The method is an invitation to find out for yourself what will unlock your imagination.

And when you're watching a movie, it does the exact same feeling like I'm there with you, whatever you're experiencing when you are in that zone and you really are that person.

I am not just saying, oh, he really is that person. I'm with you. I'm with you in the moment. I feel you're inside.

They've seen in the. I didn't forget the name of it. The film you did with Julia Roberts, the dystopian end of. Oh, I should movie. Yeah, exactly.

Now that you said it, it went out of my head to. It's great movie. All the Tesla's crash. Yeah, it was Mersh Ali and I.

I can leave the world. Thank you. That's embarrassing for me. I'm supposed to know. But when you said you couldn't remember it, then all of a sudden it went out of my mind.

It's less embarrassing for me now that you didn't remember it. It sounds like shit. I got to remember the name.

The scene where you go up to the guy's house and you pull the gun out. Yeah. Yeah. I'm right there with you. I'm like, oh shit.

It was a great scene. It was a Kevin Bacon, yeah. Phenomenal performance because I fucking believed you. I believed him. I believed you.

I believed it was happening. And I was like, oh shit. It was oh shit. It wasn't like that. That scene is exactly what I'm talking about.

Yeah. Because that's Mersh Ali, Kevin Bacon, and myself in a very well written scene. And those two guys are so easy to act with.

They are so they are so easy to disappear with them. We did that scene over and over and over again. 15,000 different ways. And it was always I always loved it.

And you know, I did I had a temper tantrum that day on set. But I because your body, you're winding your body up in such a way that it's like emotional currency or something.

You have this thing you're going to spend. But your body doesn't know it's fake. And if you do it right, you trick your body into believing that I'm begging for my child's life.

I'm not acting. I'm begging Kevin Bacon for my child's life. And he's going to decide whether or not my child gets to live.

And if you can get that that going, it shit starts to happen to you. Things you don't plan. And if Kevin is good, which he is, if Mersh Ali is good, then they're doing the same thing.

If he gives me this thing that I need, he's putting his wife at risk. You're not going to do it. I don't care about your kid.

You know, and then Mersh Ali's got his character in his head. And then all of a sudden people are actually behaving. They're not reciting lines. They're not.

It's like I did one of my earlier movies with a wolf, right? It was best acting teacher I ever had this wolf because it was this movie called White Fang, right? Little Disney kids movie, right?

It was a great teacher because I had to do these scenes with this half, half breed wolf. And if I'm, if you're the wolf, all right? And we're doing a scene together. And what I'm really thinking about is the camera, you know, the wolf turns around and looks at the camera.

You know, you know, when you meet somebody and you know their self conscious, right? You know why she's why she's so tense that you don't, you just were not verbal. We can communicate with each other. Animals pick up on it instantly.

If I'm actually talking to the dog, the wolf, if I'm actually in, if I'm present with this animal, the animal interacts with me.

And especially a wolf, especially a wolf, and damn thing. Bit me, bit me that day. Did it really hard? Yeah. Why did bite you?

All right. This is one of the best days of filming in my life. No kidding. All right, which is that amazing animal trainer Clint route was his name. And we wanted to was a scene where I'm getting the wolf to trust me.

And it's going to eat out of my hand for the first time. And so Clint had this amazing idea. It's like, what if you could see for even from that shot how far that's a long lens, that thing put me on a little tiny island where to, you know, like some two rivers for.

And so there's a little island of land right there. And so we put, see this wolf surrounded by water. Right. And, and I, this is flame. This isn't the animal that I knew really well.

But which the way to get it to look like this, we have to not know each other. And I spent all day out there with this wolf.

And whenever the camera started thinking I might have a chance of getting to pet him, they would start rolling. And I just talked to the wolf and I'd walk around and play and I just had to try to be real with him.

And he started to like me. It's not boring. And this is I'm getting close because he's starting to like me. We've been playing a lot. And comes over and.

Okay, you'll see, you'll see him bite me if you want. But amazing, amazing animal. But the point I'm trying to say is I, I sat out there for 11 hours with this starving wolf.

Trying to get him to eat. Ready. Ready. And. Ouch. Okay. That wasn't that bad. That wasn't blood. Joe did it really. Yeah, sharp teeth. But it didn't look he was trying to hurt you. No, no, he wasn't. That's what I mean. He wasn't. He was.

And so, and by the end of the day, check this out, man. I mean, it was one of the most incredible experiences in my life. I know it's a corny kid, some of you or whatever, but, but it's a real wolf and he doesn't know he's acting. Yeah, and he doesn't know he's acting.

So I got to be real. And I mean, I went when that dog died, you know, because. And I think about that scene. If when I'm doing anything.

You know, about being present. Right. And that's a. If I'm trying to get the shot, the dog is not going to eat out of my hand. If I actually want to say, hey, you can trust me. Right. You know, I don't have to give up for hours.

You know, just sit there and we didn't have a phone. I just sit there and whittle or something and walk over there toss rocks for a little bit until he got, you know, it was such a fascinating experience.

Wow. Well, that's, yeah, you can act. Right. And you never can. You never can. You never can. You never can. And one of the things about, you know, just a handful.

Lori Metcalf comes to the line. Denzel Washington, Sally Hawkins, Laura Linney, there's a handful. I mean, I could a bunch of them, Phil. There's a lot of great actors.

I've worked with them in my life. And what's so wonderful about them is if you start acting, what are you doing?

It's just, it's kind of sense. Yeah. Something smells weird. Right. Phil was the best at it because it wasn't, it wouldn't just be about you. Phil was amazing. He'd sit down to do a scene with him.

And he'd be running it and stuff. And he just, what is it?

Something smells bad. What is it? Is he who is me? I don't know, man.

Is it the cup? Is it the cup wrong? Maybe, should I be sitting over there? What smells wrong? Some's fake. What is it? What's fake?

Pace it up. Let's try pacing it up. I said, no, that's not it. It's still bad.

All right. Let me, let me try this. And then, boom, next day, we scream at you or something. And everything would shift. And, you know, the smell would change in the room.

Yeah. And it was like, he, it's like, we're just shaking out what is self-conscious. Something is self-conscious here. Somebody's posing.

Is it me? Is it you? Is it the proper, proper table wrong? I don't, I don't believe this scene. And what it means is, when you're watching the movie, you, the paying audience aren't going to be able to disappear.

Something, you know, having, having never seen a movie sometime, you're like, why is she wearing that red jacket? Who thought that was a good idea? And all you think about is a red jacket. Is this wrong? I don't know why it's wrong, but everybody knows it.

I don't, I don't necessarily notice with clothes, because I'm not very close conscious. But I do notice what you're saying about self-consciousness. And I don't understand what it is.

It's like this untouchable, unwaible, unmeasurable element that just exists. And we know it. We know it's real. Don't you, don't you feel it in here?

Yeah. When somebody's being funny with you.

Oh, yeah. Oh, somebody has a big agenda about what they want to accomplish in your show or something like that.

Oh, for sure. Especially political people or people that have some sort of a controversial technology that really probably should be regulated.

What we're going to be able to do is amazing things.

And they get that tone in their voice. That Charlie Brown, wow, wow, wow.

It's just a air of bullshit. And I don't know what that is. But it exists in acting. It certainly exists in comedy, too.

I would say that when I watch a great comic on stage, they take me on a ride. I let them think for me. I'm sitting down. Think for me. You're thinking for me.

And when someone's thinking for you, it's just like you're free to explore their mind. And if there's health conscious, you'll feel it.

Like I see someone tense. Like I have a club and a comedy club in town. And when new people audition there, perform there, you fucking feel the nerves.

And I'm always like, just give me a few minutes. Let them shake it out. Just let them shake that. It's so hard when so much is on the line to not be self conscious.

It's to be present. But you're smart to give him space. That's always what I feel. Just give me space. Give me space. Give me space to be bad.

I need space to be bad. And it's kind of like in basketball, you got to touch the ball. Let me touch the ball. Let me make the look.

Well, we've all been bad. So it doesn't mean he can't be good. When I see someone on stage and they're self conscious and clunky, I'm like, this is a process. This is not, this is not like a rocket that when you screw in the last rivets, you're ready to light the fuse.

I love watching an actor. I admire be bad. I love it. I love it. It's not, it's not a science. Right. It's not science. Sometimes you got to take a shot and sometimes you miss.

Well, sometimes you're going through a divorce or you got a fucking drug problem or the director's an asshole or the, you know, or they change the script the other day or you hate to D.P.

Producer's a douchebag. But when I was, I always tell my kids who are really interested in my profession or any young actor is like, I call that permission to fail is I don't, I don't give anybody.

My, I don't have permission to fail. You know, you, I don't care if you don't like the first 80. I don't care if you don't like this. This cannot give them that ability. I still fail. I'm not saying that, but I don't want to see it.

You know, it's yeah, then, and um, but that takes time. I spent the first 15 years of my career saying I didn't do a good job because that guy was a jerk or I didn't do a good job because they changed the script or I didn't do a good job because of this that and the other thing.

And then you see people like back to our hero thing, you know, then you see people are really good and they don't, they don't.

Robert DeNiro doesn't give somebody the ability to screw up his work day. They don't have that power. He takes responsibility for that power.

Is that a learned thing or is it you could certainly learn some of it from watching other people, but is that just an experience thing?

I think it's the right manifestation of confidence, right? Young people have to fake confidence. They just have to when you watch a young person in your club, they got a fake. Of course, they're going to have to burn through their nerves are going to have to.

But once you have experience, you can have real confidence because you fought this battle before.

I know, I have a certain, if I'm overwhelmed with, if my nervous system is at war with myself, I have a certain process I can, I've walked these woods before, you know, I know why I'm lost and I know what I need to do.

And it doesn't mean I'll always work through it, but I'm much more likely to than I was 20 years ago.

You know, it's knowing that it's this process when you watch younger people do it. Do you ever, like, are you ever working with a young person and it's not clicking somehow and you're trying to figure out how to help them?

Like, is there a thing you could say to them? Is there, can you just do it by example only? Well, examples the best, the best teacher's example.

Unassured advice has never heard from the problem with young people is they don't often ask for advice. They think they're trying so hard to pretend like they know everything that they feel like to ask advice.

I kind of feel like it's a generalization though because I do know a lot of young people that do ask advice.

All right. Well, one of the, my, my thing is I can't, I cannot believe the amount of young people who show up on set with their phone.

Oh, yeah.

And when you were saying about hypnosis, let me tell you what's a destroyer of collective imagination.

Yeah.

Is, is our phones?

I was reading an article today and I think it was psychology today about a study that they've done recently on the impact of social media on cognitive function for children.

And then it's just fucking nuking their brain.

How old are your kids?

I have a 15 year old and a 17 year old and a 28 year old.

So what is your, like, because my wife and I go through this all day, they want it so bad.

And as a parent, you want them to be happy and all their friends have Instagram.

I know it destroys my brain.

Yeah.

How could it not hurt theirs?

I find my own powers of concentration are suffering.

I'll be reading a book, which I used to do all the time in every 10 pages that take a break to look at my phone.

What's happening?

Why am I doing this?

Right.

You know what, what, so, but they want it so bad.

Yeah.

And I want them to be, how do you handle that?

I do not put restrictions on my children's use of social media, but we do have discussions about it.

Because I think it is an inexorable part of modern society, and I think there is a social ostracation that comes from eliminating social media, telling your kid that can have a phone.

I see it in other kids.

I don't think that's the solution.

My daughter is loving you right now.

She is just like, see, because she says, let me teach me to be responsible for it myself.

Yeah.

Help me do that.

That's what I believe.

And, you know, when we were thinking about what restrictions we were going to do, we went on a walk with this really good friend of mine, Richard Linklider is an amazing person.

And they tried to, my daughter's hit him up of what he thinks.

He said, I don't know.

All I know is that the most important thing is to be your own best friend.

And that this is a slight obstacle to it.

That boredom, boredom, and sitting still with yourself is a membrane you kind of have to pass through.

And if you can make best friends with yourself, then your best friend is always with you.

And so that's been my solution too, is to say, all right, let's all, there aren't limitations, but let's all sit down and look at, I'll show you how much I looked at it.

How much did you look at it?

How we doing?

Do you feel, is it helping, is it hurting? Because what you're a thousand percent right about is it's part of the social structure of their lives.

And to isolate them from it is to, you can't pretend that doesn't have negative side effects.

Well, one of my children, well, both of my children, my young children, are very disciplined. And one of them just opted out, just decided she's not going to get on social media anymore. And she got this app, and this is nobody forced to do this.

She got this app that locks you out, and it shows you how many days you've been off of Instagram, sort of sort of incentivize you, you know, to stay off of it.

You know, the last time she checked, she'd been off like 99 days, or something like that, no Instagram, no nothing.

But it is addictive. But there's a lot of things in life that are addictive. And so the question is like, how addictive is it?

What is calling you to get nothing? Because that's what you get, you get nothing.

You get these tiny dopamine hits, like staring at something for a few seconds, like, oh, that's provocative, or that's crazy. Like, why is he saying that, or why is that happening?

Oh, my God, they're going to die. You know, like, I have this terrible text thread between me and my friend Tom Segura, where we sent each other the absolute worst things that we find online every day.

Like, every day, it's got to run over by a train, car accidents, gunshots, South American assassinations. It's just all, every day, it's all the worst things you could possibly find on the internet.

There's no good in that, you know, we do that to fuck with each other, because it's kind of funny, because he's a comedian too, and we just fuck with each other.

It's just like silly, like, oh boy, like he sends me things, and I send him things. But for the most part, I get nothing. It's mostly nothing, occasionally.

I say it's like, I make this excuse, like, as a comic, oh, I need to be up on the zeitgeist. I need to be paying attention to what people are paying attention to.

But you kind of get it anyway. You kind of get it anyway just through life, and it's better that way, because then you only get the real significant things.

You don't have to sift through everything. It's like you have a filter. Society acts as your filter to get you the most pertinent information.

But I think leading, by example, with kids is the best way with everything. My kids are both very disciplined. They get a lot of things done, and they work really hard, which I'm very proud of.

They're also really nice, which I'm also very proud of. I think that's like the hardest fucking thing to do is just be nice, to be a kind person.

The worst thing for kindness is social media. Children, in particular, are so fucking mean to each other on social media.

There's so mean to each other in comments, and they talk about how one of their friends is getting bullied, and this person is doing this, and they're leaving comments on this, and from arrival, high school, and this and that.

I also think that that process of understanding that there is this bizarre social interaction that's not real. That is a part of life, and that you have to develop a resilience to this.

Getting tough is important. One of the things kids are experiencing now is what I experienced with the first blush of celebrity.

I mean, you want to tell me negative comments, try being an actor, whenever it's got a opinion about what you would fake you are, what a phone you are, this is sucks about you, this is dumb, this is what you're like.

I have lost unbelievable ridiculous amount of hours to my mother will send me a really nice review of something positive about me.

I'll look at it, and my brain goes, what are the comments? Nasty. I mean, just the nastiest things, and you can't believe that some, but I don't want to give it too much time, but I actually think it really makes you stronger to realize, of course, people don't like you.

It's fine. It's fine, they don't like you. Guess what? Have the people of every party you went to didn't like you, but they're also not thinking very much about you.

They're thinking about themselves, and you start to realize that this is just people talking at the barbershop. People have been gossiping throughout the history of mankind. Now you can read it if you want, but it has no venom in it.

It's not real, right? And the sooner you learn that other people's opinions don't have to affect you, I think the better off you are. So in that way, it hurt me.

I mean, it happened to actors, especially if you're doing stage, I'm sure with comics, when you're doing a play, and you have to do it every night, and you start reading a lot of bad things that people say about you, it is demolishing to your confidence.

I mean, I had this actor, friend of mine, he was shared dressing room, and one day he came in, and he was great in the show, and he came in and his whole energy was dark as a gritty.

I went down the rabbit hole last night. I just read what people are saying about me on the internet, and everybody thinks I'm terrible in this play.

And I'm like, they don't like your character. People are not so brilliant. It's not all geniuses out there chiming in on what a jerk you are at three in the morning.

You don't have to take a seriously, but it took him weeks to get his mojo back, because he would step out on stage just imagining this chorus of hate.

I had the exact same conversation last night with a famous comedian friend of mine, but he went down a reddit rabbit hole.

I don't do it anymore. I don't do it. He goes, "I fucked up, but I went down this rabbit hole."

Don't do it. Don't do it. No good comes from it. And he was like, "They fucking hate me." I go, "No, no, no. They hate themselves. They hate everything."

Michael Jordan's not leaving reddit comments. These aren't winners. These are fucking people that are not doing what they want to be doing, and they want to hate on everybody that's out there, that's out there in the public guy.

And some of it is valid. The scary hate is when you get hate from Quentin Tarotino, where he's going off on that guy from...

Paul Dano's just going about his life. He's got to wake up one morning and find out this director's just went off on him and saying this hateful things.

But anybody that knows Quentin knows he just talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, right?

Anybody that knows Paul knows he's a great world class human being, and all this love for Paul's coming out, and it's a great lesson in that. You don't have to worry about the negativity that people send you away.

You don't have to worry about it at all. From one of the greatest directors of all time. Yeah, it's okay. And guess what? I'm positive. There are great directors that think I suck.

I'm positive. Quentin at least says whatever comes into his mind. I remember once I met some director, and I won't say his name at a bar.

He's a dive bar in New York. He's a really famous big shot director. He's sitting there, and he just seen my most recent movie. He's like, you know, you were pretty good in that one.

And in the comment was the subtitle that underneath it was, I have hated you for 27 years. That's, it was so clear.

You know, and it knows this game through. Yeah, I mean, it was so close like, wow, well, no wonder you've never offered me a movie. And directors have opinions, right?

They have super strong opinions. What do they have a strong opinions about acting, right? And, you know, what he's talking about the movie, he would have directed.

Okay, that's he's not talking about Paul Dano. He's talking about something else. He's like you said about the thing. They're talking about themselves. Obviously, whenever anybody says something hateful, they're talking about themselves.

That's not what they're talking about. And, and the punchline to this whole thing is, you know, I've worked with Paul a couple of different times. And I love the guy. And I'm so happy for him.

Me nearly every, every other, every other comment everywhere. Somebody saying something great about Paul Dano.

Yeah, the majority, the vast majority of comments were really positive about him. And I went and rewatched the scene because of it.

And he was fucking great. Oh, he played a great, like that guy. It's not for debate. It's, you know, it's not for debate. I'm sure if you were alone, drinking with Steven Spielberg, he'd shock you with some opinion.

He, you know, he hates horse and wells or something like that. You know what I mean? I mean, we wouldn't be a good director if he wasn't opinionated. Of course, you know, it doesn't mean he's the truth. Of course.

It's just the opening up your vulnerability to the masses. And in the most trivial and flippant ways of commenting, which is like leaving a comment on a YouTube video or something like that.

It's just not wise. It's not, it's not good, especially if you actually let it get into your psyche and you take it in as real, because we are designed to recognize threats, danger, negativity, because it's important.

Like, that's sorry to cut you off, but that's the truth. Yeah. The reason why it hurts me when it comes is exactly what you're, I'm worried they're going to take my career away. I love what I do.

I do a big movie and I really work hard in the New York Times or the L.A. Times says he sucks. I don't really care about that critics opinion. Yeah.

I cares. Is this going to stop me from doing what I love because I know it's fragile. I know that there are a million talented people. Right. I know that I know that I'm lucky. I know that I'm fortunate.

So it is scary. It is a threat. Right. I mean, but it is, but you got to get tough. I'm sorry. Cut you off and I don't really have a good point. It's fine. You know what I mean. Yeah, you do.

And I mean, I don't want to be cruel, but I also, this is how I feel critics in particular. I do not think they want to be critics. And I feel like most people who become critics become critics because they don't have anything to contribute.

They're not great writers. They, or they never developed the ability to be a great writer. They never pursued it or whatever it is. They don't, they're not great actors. They're not, they're just criticizing.

Criticizing, like criticizing from Quentin Tarantino is a very different thing than a criticism that comes from a person. That's just a critic.

And I remember I had this. There was this moment when Fear Factor came out. Like Fear Factor is a fucking completely idiotic show. It's just that's all it is is just escapism.

It's chaos. People doing stupid shit for money. This is crazy. This is nuts. Oh my god. They really going to do this.

And maybe you get something out of the end like that guy pulled it out or she did it. She didn't want to do it. She faces snakes. Yeah, but it's really usually like need to end things like something physical. But Fear Factor came out right after 9/11.

That's when it came out. And one of the criticisms was, do you really think America needs to be facing fear after we just experienced September 11th's terrorist attack?

And I got this question in an interview. And you know, my perspective on Fear Factor in the beginning was, I'm only doing this because I think it's going to get canceled.

I'm like, I'll get some material out of this. I'm like, they're going to sick dogs on people and make me animal dicks.

I'm in. I'm like, this is going to get canceled like fucking three weeks. And I'm going to have a bit on how fucking stupid this show was. And it wound up doing like 168 episodes ridiculous.

And I said, and I got upset in this interview, I go, that's just ridiculous. Like they were questioning me whether or not America needs to be scared after 9/11.

I'm like, it's not fucking scary. And I'm like, what are you talking? You're making something into something. It's not just so that you can write an article. This is nonsense.

And I go, that kind of criticism is the type of criticism from a person where I'm not interested in your opinion.

I don't think you're a particularly unique thinker. And you're saying something that's nonsense. It's nonsense. It's a stupid show. I'll tell you it's a stupid show.

And it's my fucking show. I don't care. It's just entertainment. That's all it is. And I think the people that write this are writing this in that way because you don't have anything to contribute.

And I met that person at a party. There was one of those, you know, they have like, if you're on a television show, they have those NBC things where you go. And it's like, there's all these different reporters and all the actors from all the shows are there.

And the guy was like, you know, I got to tell you that really pissed me off. I go, why? Because it's accurate. I go, what pissed you off? I go, you say horrible, hurtful things about all these different people.

And the course of their career is dependent upon your opinions and to a certain extent. You could shape other people's narratives about who this actor is, about who this person is.

And you just do it because you don't have anything else to contribute. And so when I said you don't have anything else to contribute, that hurt your feelings. That's why it pissed you off. It didn't pissed you off because I wasn't accurate.

And we had this like weird moment, you know, where he was like taking into consideration what I was saying. And he was like, okay. And I go, come not a bad guy. And I don't think you're a bad guy.

But you have to realize this weight to your words. And I realized there's weight to my words. That's why I lashed out like that. I think there's a stupid.

I'll tell you this show's stupid. It's a stupid show. We're not making fucking Shakespeare in the park, bro. We're making people like line up, cough and fill with rats. It's retarded. But it's okay.

It's okay to have dumb shit. It's okay to have burgers. It's okay to have, you know, filet mignon and a fine restaurant.

Absolutely. All these things are okay. But call it what it is. If you want to say it's a dumb show, I'm right there with you. But if you want to say, like, this is bad for America because America just got attacked by it. It's called fear fact. Just shut up.

And I just think he didn't like the fact that I was criticizing him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was willing to do what he does to him without fear because I had already checked out of acting. I did five years on news radio and I decided I'm done acting.

I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I only did it for money in the first place. I never wanted to be an actor. The only reason why I ever got on a set. I got on a sitcom with zero acting experience zero. I mean, I had not had to go. I did. I did MTV half hour comedy hour, which was this comedy show that used to be on MTV.

I did like a 10 minutes set and I got a development deals like what? Like all of a sudden they gave me money. I was poor my whole life. And then all of a sudden I had $150,000. This is crazy. I have money. Like it was nuts. And my manager actually thought I had a gambling problem because I was spending so much money.

And he was like, what are you spending my mind? I'm like eating lobster every night. I was so dumb. I thought I was just going to run out and then I go back to being poor again.

But also, I'm on this show and I'm acting. And I realized at the end of five years, it was a wonderful job with an amazing, incredible group of talented people. But I don't want to do it again. It's not my thing. I don't like it.

So when fear factor came up, I'm like, ooh, this is a way to make a lot of money without doing anything that's acting. Okay, I'll do it. And so dealing with these people that I've seen the impact of their words on all the people that I worked with. Like we used to sit around, you know, you have the table reads and then people would start reading variety. And they'd start reading the Hollywood reporter and all this different thing. And they would all be super bummed out. And I would call it the devil's rag.

So I'd go there, oh, you guys are reading the devil's rag again. I go fucking throw that away. It was like the early versions of don't read the comments. I go, you guys are reading the devil's rag. Don't fucking read that because then they would be all bummed out. Like, oh, they think we suck.

No, they they suck. We're trying to make a good sitcom. Let's just try hard. The best way to not make a good sitcom is to read shitty things about you.

Definitely. You're going to be really bummed out. And this constant process of dealing with other people's opinions and especially negative opinions from people that you don't really like.

In the first place, they're not happy people. It's such a it's such a poison for your mind.

Well, and that's why we're talking about the same thing with the internet is figuring out a way to give it no space in your mind.

Because, you know, people are going to do what they're going to do and they're you're not in charge of them. That's what I feel like the when you absorb too much of that hate and take it on yourself, you're forgetting that

somebody writes something hateful about somebody else, whether it's Quentin or whether it's this person or that person or whatever.

Most people hear it and think, well, I wonder why he said that. What's wrong with him? They don't think something. So when a lot of times I might take really personally something that somebody hateful writes about me, but the world believes it.

Right. The world has people. Michael Jordan, who's not writing comments might come across that and think, God, that writer's an asshole. That's what he's not thinking you're an asshole.

You know, if you're not saying something substantive, other people have a brain in their head and they know it. And so you can just ignore. I feel he can just ignore it.

I've never gained anything except perhaps the value of a thick skin from all that.

The value of a thick skin is important, though. And there's some value to being hurt to taking it in and then realize it's dangerous to take it out.

And you must know, like with your show, I imagine, I don't really understand really how this works. But there's people who finance it and distribute it. There's people you have to work with. And they all have opinions.

And like I'm doing this show right now, the lowdown with effects. Right. So first time I've ever done a television show. And I'm having a great experience with it. But you have to figure out.

You're working with a lot of different people. You got effects. It's got their opinions about how the show is and they're going to distribute it on Hulu and their own by Disney and everybody.

And you have to learn how to take criticism. Go all right. And also how to stand up for yourself when you know what you know your aim is true. And you have to be humble enough to tell the difference.

Because anybody thinks they're always right as an asshole. Right. So sometimes you need their help. Yes. And you have things to be taught. And sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and say, this is the kind of art I want to make. And I'm living and dying on this. But actually what you're saying actually could help me do what I'm doing.

And no, the same thing with directors. If you can't, when you were talking about advice for young people, the first thing that popped in my head is something one of my first directors said to me, which was he said, what I was 21. I was doing my first was make my Broadway debut. And this director said, what have you done?

And I said, well, I did explores, you know, when I was a kid, and I did this movie, Dead Poets Society, and I acted in this school play, I played Tom in Glassman Ashery, my senior year, and, you know, and this director looked at me and said, so you've done nothing.

And I was, I took offense at that. You know, I said, I have done some things. He said, I need you to say, I've done nothing.

I need you to say, I don't know. And if you can say, I don't know, I can teach you. And if you can't say, I don't know. Then I really can't teach you.

And my 21 year old ego was just buckling. You know, I do know what I do. I do know what I'm doing. And he said, you've never been on Broadway before. You've never done check off before. And you can't say, I don't know what I'm doing.

You know, I said, I can't say that. I don't know what I'm doing. See, it's not that hard. You know, because if you can say that, I remember this, like the first time going out surfing once, somebody's trying to teach me the surfing. I was like 16, I can say, I know how to do it. I know I know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it.

But I couldn't, my ego couldn't buck. And if you can get to that Zen tabulurasa, no place, the beginner's mind. See now at 55, I always say, I don't know what I'm doing. It's so easy for me to say it.

You know, it is so easy. You know, one lifetime is not enough to know what you're doing. There's so many more rooms. There's so many more layers.

And so that's the advice I have for young people's term is to be humble and admit because you've done a handful of things, doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

And even though I might have even had some success, I didn't know why it was successful.

You know, that's a great, the beginner's mind is a great point to start because even if you're really good at something, like say you're a good piano player and you want to learn how to play tennis, you start from a beginner's mind.

You have to. And if you go into that tennis lesson going, do you know how fucking good I am a piano? Like don't talk to me like that. Like no, you don't know how to play tennis. Let me show you how to play tennis. Like everyone is a beginner at a thing they don't know.

And to take on as many things as you don't know as possible to keep that beginner's mind is actually immensely beneficial for your ego, for your objectivity, for everything.

For everything could see it was somebody like you who's had a lot of transitions in your life about different career paths and different things that you're that's always forcing you into a beginner's mind.

And that's I think I've done the same thing to myself, you know, like what keeps me excited is like, all right, God, I don't know, I'm going to write a graphic novel.

I'm going to work with this guy Greg Ruth, he's a brilliant illustrator. I'm going to make a graphic novel. Now I've never done that before.

I've no idea how graphic novel works. I know I've loved them my whole life, but never made one. Greg has, right? We work together.

He teaches Sterling Harjo with the show The Low Down. Boom, I've never done a show. He made reservation dogs. He's done this.

I don't know this landscape and I love that feeling because I don't lose all the value of the things I do know about it's all there for me.

It's all there for me. I don't have to announce it over everybody. It's not going anywhere.

But if I can orient myself into learning, I'm like making these documentaries because I'm not a professional documentarian.

But what's weird about it is if I do that and I get in this real kind of open space and then I come back to acting, that beginner's mind channel is open.

And I'm available to learn something from somebody else that maybe I might, because one of the things I thought when I was young is I thought there was a right way to be an actor.

And I was obsessed with somebody doing it wrong. This director is a fucking moron and he's ruining my work.

And then slowly I really realized it's so obvious there isn't a right way to make art. There are successful ways and unsuccessful ways. But I wanted everybody to be Peter Rear.

That's what I wanted. Peter Rear had made Dead Poets Society and that's what rehearsal was supposed to be like. That's what the set is supposed to be like.

That's how you're supposed to talk to other people. I didn't know my mentor was a card carrying awesome human being. And I was having unrealistic expectations about other people on their path.

They haven't even done all that Peter's done. They don't know it all. And I just, it would anger me that they weren't, you know, and then if you can get in a kind of a more open mind, then you can really listen to people and absorb where they're at in their journey.

And you're not going to change them. You know, you're not this idea that, you know, especially in a film shoot, three men are going to change the way they think.

You know, you got to try to do your thing, lead by example, you know, and try to let them not negatively impact you. But maybe you can be open and learn something from them.

And then that whole beginner's mindset is just immensely beneficial. Like you're saying, how you carry it over to your acting. I would recommend that with anybody who does anything. Find another thing that you're not good at at all and get into that because that will help you with the thing that you're good at.

And Evan, even though it's like, I took, it's, it happens so often that it's funny. Like I take my son out to teach him how to shoot, right? First key thing is just blast it right out of there. Second one, blast it right out of there.

Right. You know, you teach somebody to shoot a bow or something. First, they fly, hits the target. Then they don't want to target again.

You know, you bought, you start thinking too much. You know, you hear, I hear about, I don't know anything about golf, but I hear the same thing that she was golf.

Young people are often great actors. It's adolescence in life that makes it harder to get back to that childlike place.

You know, and so I think I've even been talking to my wife a lot about I want to start trying to take piano lessons just to do something I've never done because I know I know it rattles my brain.

Yes, it makes my brain see things to take a new language on, learn how to play chess, do something. Yeah, it's usually beneficial to be a beginner. I think a person that only does one thing.

There's something very valuable in that too, but do one thing, immerse yourself in that one thing and do it the best you can. It's true.

It's true. The term kaisen, it's a Japanese term for refining something over and over and over and over again for decades until you absolutely have it perfected.

And I believe in that entirely, but I also believe that to master a craft, you have to apprentice three or four.

It's good for like I'm an actor and I'm going to die an actor and this is what I'm going to do and I have met older actors who are amazing, who I know I'm not as good as.

And it kind of thrills me. It thrills me. There's little nuances of conversation that I don't quite understand yet, but I know that they do and I know that they're right and I want to understand more deeply.

And I just feel that, I don't know, I lost my train of thought about that. I don't know. I just totally, my computer just shut down and I forgot what I was talking about.

It's okay. I think more people need, I think the problem is when you're really good at something, you find identity in it.

Oh, that's what I was saying. I know I want to excel at this one craft, but I know that when I direct something, when I write something,

if I make a graphic novel, a documentary, I'm learning about things that are adjacent to my specialty.

And by doing that, when I go, when I go to set and I'm talking to a writer, I know how hard he worked on the script.

I'm not going to really nearly change his lines because I'm not in the mood or I don't like the way my hair looks or something like that. I'm not going to do that.

I have respect for what he did. And because I have that respect, I can offer him my thoughts, and we can probably get involved in a really mutually beneficial conversation.

Because I've directed, I don't look at some director and think, well, like I did when I was younger, he stopped at me. I'm thinking, I know this guy is sweat this.

I know this guy picked this location for a reason. I know this guy is a tenuous relationship with a cinematographer.

I know the producers are breathing down his neck. I know he's got a lot of headaches. I'm going to help him.

And I'm going to try to find an app. You know what I mean? So these ancillary, I do want to have a specialty.

But I do think learning the piano might help me be a better actor. Like I don't know why. I don't know the logic behind it.

But I think in particular in acting that would be true because acting is you becoming someone else who's in life and life involves a lot of different aspects.

There's a lot of different things that go on in a human being's mind. The more you can introduce to your mind, the more that would help you become a variety of different people that you're performing as.

I mean wouldn't it be phenomenal? Be very weird. But like so you and I've been talking.

And I would venture to say we're doing pretty well. Three quarters of the time we're completely immersed in what we're talking about.

And then my brain, why my computer shut down is I start thinking about this actor that I love Richard Easton.

And I start thinking about how I'm still not as good as he is. And he's not even famous.

And then I couldn't remember what I was going to say. And you're talking to me about your kids or something. And there's no way your mind doesn't drift to something going on in your life.

And mine does too. And so that's what real life is like. And the actor's job is to figure out the text and the text to be so clear in there that then you can figure out all the other wavelengths.

You know when you're watching somebody grade. There's all these other wavelengths that are happening. There's nothing they it's not that they have nothing to do with the script, but it's like.

It's like the difference between a sketch and a oil painting. You know the script is kind of a beautiful sketch and the actor's job director's job production designs. We're turning that into an oil painting.

And so anyway, I'm just saying wouldn't if I could put a subtitle under everything we're really thinking while we're talking.

How different would it be and how much more would I learn about you if I knew what you know what your guys relationship is really like? Does he get on your nerves?

Do you hate it? You know that he wears a black cap? Do you wish you wear the red one? Do you know, you know what I'm saying?

I got to do so much about when I'm in your space so much I don't know about what's going on today and what you guys are doing later today.

How you cut the show or what's important to you about the show or what I forget about things I'm talking about all the time because I'm trying to lock into the other person's brain.

And sometimes I forget what I want to say because I'm trying to like I'm trying to think like you I'm trying to like completely be in the moment and think like you.

That's what I try to do when I'm doing when I'm having a conversation with the person I try to be as completely locked in as possible so much so that sometimes I forget people's names that I know really well.

I forget all kinds of things because I'm not thinking about anything else other than what that person's thinking and saying and trying to like decipher it and trying to like trying to like you know guide the conversation in some sort of an interesting way.

But I forget all kinds of things I forget important people's phone numbers birthdays I don't remember anything I got so many times I'll ask Jamie of course who's that fucking what what is this fucking name and then I can't believe I can't remember it's because I'm not there.

I'm lost in what this person is saying so I have to like sit down and open up my files and go all there's all the information again but I'm not there so I can't do that.

So I've got to go let me go back to my desk and I'll open up my files and now I have my information but when I'm talking to you I'm not at my desk.

That's what it's like for me to have a great role.

My brain disappears into that other psyche and I can kind of do some of the normal stuff of life.

Drive my kids to school and do some things but this part of me is floating over here imagining was this the right way to how should I wear the jacket.

What do you drive a car what kind of car what do you drive set the right car set the right like you know and just my imagination when it's really cooking.

It takes me away from what my favorite things about it is I don't think about my phone I don't think about the emails I didn't return I didn't think about whether I forgot so and so's birthday for this period of time this job is so important to me that I'm willing to say nothing else matters.

But doing as good as I can in this moment obviously it's going to matter again when I leave the dressing room and when I do this obviously I'm trying to be a good adult and father and husband and citizen all that stuff but it gives me a space or everything else can disappear.

Everything else and that's what's so fun about a big ensemble like I don't people may like to move or not like to move but I did this remake of Magnificent 7 right and we have a big cast in everybody's in period costume you know and everybody's on their horse and your jackets from 1876 and their shirt is from you know from the Civil War something like that and it's all real and there's these old taverns.

Old taverns built and there's dogs on the set and horses peeing and you know what I mean it's all so real and my life is gone.

Yes and I'm just good night roba show and you know and I got to worry about how many bullets I have left in my thing and you know and it's you're it's a it's it back to hypnosis and it's a wonderful relaxation and that's the strange thing about it is it's like you know when you're a kid

and you first look at the stars of the ocean or something and you feel powerfully your own insignificance and your intellectual brain would think that that would feel bad.

Oh you're somebody told you hey you're insignificant that feels bad but when you look at the stars it feels great yeah and it's it's the same feeling of like why would disappearing feels so good.

I did when I was you know I did this play with Steve's on great active if you had Steve on your show no he's a genius and he's so funny we were doing a play together and I would say to him I said tonight she went really good do you think

do you think it went well yeah I thought it went really well you know you always think it goes really well because I never remember.

Yeah and to truth is he's so zen he's so in the moment what you're talking about when you do comedy or when you do your interviews he is so in he's so present that he honestly doesn't

remember and that's the trick because he doesn't have his huge opinion yeah because the opinion gets in your way all the time yes it really can yeah and I think the ultimate in the

moment for a person that doesn't have a craft or thing is staring at the stars because you realize you are a part of everything and you are in this

infinite soup of existence that all of your troubles in your it seems so insignificant in comparison to the vastness of what's in front of you

and that lets your shoulders lighten yeah and then you can handle what you can handle I talked about this before but I'll tell you when I was younger when my oldest

daughter was I think she was only five or six we went to the kek observatory in Hawaii and I don't know if you've been there it's on the

head island but they told us it's like an hour and a half drive they told us when you're driving up there go you're you know you're going

to go to the top and hopefully there won't be any clouds so you get a clear vision of the sky so as we're driving up

solid fucking clouds I'm like oh sucks it's going to suck we're driving all of us we're not going to see any stars we drive through the clouds

because it's really high and you get up to the top and you're above the clouds and we got out of the car and my fucking jaw

dropped it was nuts it was the craziest image and I've been there three times since never recreated it there's always been

cloud cover that's higher up I just caught it the first time I went there at the absolute perfect it changed my life it changed

my perspective on the universe itself because it felt like I was it felt psychedelic it felt like it was in a

spaceship like a convertible spaceship and I was looking through the windshield and we were flying through the cosmos

and there was an impossible amount of stars in the sky there wasn't a spot in the sky that wasn't filled with stars

the Milky Way was clear as day it was fucking bananas that's what it looked like you didn't feel like you're on a

spaceship you are you're on a real ice ship yeah look at that that's it that's well that's what it

kind of looks like but it's actually even more profound you know that is the Keck observatory you know when I was telling

you about white thing my experience so I was out there since this is 1989 right I'm in Haynes

Alaska it's about a hundred miles north to Juneau there's no internet the mail comes once a week on

Monday if it's bad weather the mail doesn't come till the next week right I'm there for six months 19

years old there's nobody to talk to I mean there's no close star the only 19 year old there

listen this the guy who was the production you know the production manager whatever he was hyper AA right and

there's one bar in town and he told the manager if I was seen in there he would shut it down there was no

where else to go to dick I was like I don't I told the guy said look I'm not gonna drink I got it like

the stuntmen are hanging in there all the other actors are hanging out in there and I had nothing to

do because I couldn't go in the one freaking bar right and in for the first three months I was there was

always dark right and then the second three months was always light and it was just but anyway the

point is I went on this long walk and I saw the Royalis by myself you know and I'd see

it night after night just see the sky rippling and it was like what you're talking about

it was like it actually made me laugh wow you know it just seemed it was funny it was like the

cosmos was teasing you going oh you think all this is real yeah I was like I do I do think it

matters whether white fine is a good movie and then I just giggle you know and I was like oh you

have no idea what's going on and it was it was something like your talk something you don't

unsee yes you know I still have over my desk I have a little postcard from Haynes Alaskan

it still comes to me in my dreams all the time I'm back there wow I think we're being robbed

of that because of cities light pollution as robbed us of I what I think all of our ancestors

always inherently observed when nighttime came around everybody realized well you're

well you're you're a part of the infinite cosmos and there's magic to the universe which is why

there was so many people you know hundreds of thousands of years ago that had these

whimsical tales and these ideas of the importance of life and existence when they're

in the most brutal moments of history they're in the most brutal moments of of life

or death hunter gatherers warring tribes but yet at night you're presented with this impossible

majesty of the cosmos above your head every every night now today we have fucking social media

this is your son this is your star you're staring at a stupid fucking screen and when you look

up you just see nothing but blackness because there's all these city skyscrapers

it's blinded out the one thing that is like one of the most important humbling like

grounding experiences appearing at the cosmos it's still weird it's so hard to

be in a bad mood when you're looking at the stars right it's so hard to be in a

bad mood when you're riding a bicycle and you feel the wind in your music it's

it's just it's just such a simple little thing stupid little invention this bicycle

but you get in your right around it's very hard to stay in a bad mood if you spend

two hours on a bicycle yeah and there's so many things like that that we rob ourselves

of you know I don't know even like I find when I'm in nature exercise when I run

outside and I'm running through the trees and I see a hawk and I see the wind blowing

through and I pass a farm with sheep and I it's like I come back from a long run

high and I feel like I like myself yeah you know in in the city I go to the gym and

I got on one thing highlights of all my sports teams that I love and they're

blinking up and down and then I got the world is ending on all the news channels

blinking up and down and I got guys who are in better shape than me walking by

and girls who are super hot walking by that I'm trying not to look at be a good

person and I walk out of the gym and I hate myself you know I mean I got some

exercise but it wasn't long for the country and I like it but anyway it's a

certainly a different experience yeah doing it outside is that too much information

that's me that's everybody and you know and the the thing is like the gym

wants to keep you occupied because then you'll show up more often it won't be

incredibly boring if you go to a dank dungeon of a gym with nothing on the

walls other than a small mirror that's covered with other people spit you know

I think that's why we all liked in Rocky when you like go of course just goes

out to the point Rocky for that's the one I'm thinking of here yeah that's the

one I'm thinking when the burn is freezing out it's just him in this car in the

log yeah it's hilarious yeah well we like the idea and I was gonna bring that

up earlier when you were talking about immersing yourself in a role and

preparing for a thing is one of the more romantic things to me about

fighting when when I know that like when like this past weekend there was a big

UFC when a fighter goes into a camp they go off somewhere they leave their family

behind often for like two months at a time and they just completely immerse

themselves in preparation for this one thing that's going to happen and every

little thing that distracts you robs you away from the potential of that one

possible majestic performance that one career defining performance which

they're all chasing after and for a championship level fighter it's like the

immense pressure and then this thing this you call it romantic because it is kind

of romantic this romantic task oh it's dedication yes yes full

dedication full complete dedication the way that you're even talking about

trying to do your interviews are trying to your comedy you're trying to be

insane but to have something so I mean I envy that when I read about fighters

and the dedication I really kind of long for that experience that idea of going

away and I think there's something about I've always I don't know if you think

this but whatever I pass by a monastery the convent or some of these people

who are dedicated to their spiritual calling so completely that they've isolated

out all the noise of life yes I'm like I'm really glad they exist I'm glad in the

same way I feel about fighters I feel like I mean with the fighters I really envy

it because I we all would like to test ourselves how how much could I

dedicate myself how could I could I go to the next level how far can I go

and and I think that oh just singularity of focus it feels really good and there

is something I think I love stories about fighters and for just that just

in the fact that it all rests on these X amount of minutes yeah and chaos

and just what was it like was it like watching fighting no fighting terrifying

yeah did you ever would you ever get to a place of was it would you ever get to a place

where you're walking into the ring and you weren't afraid no if I did I didn't

perform well there was a few times I was overconfident and I didn't perform well

because I tricked myself and not being scared so because I wasn't because I didn't like

being nervous so I tricked myself into thinking I'm so good I don't have to be nervous

and then I fought so many times like the problem is complacency so if I

probably when I was competing I probably had somewhere in the neighborhood of

a hundred fights and martial arts and so I did nothing but that from age 15 to

21 traveled around the country and there was times where I did it so much

that I was not nervous and then I would go there and I wouldn't fight well

and then I would go why I missed opportunities even if I won I was like hyper

critical even if I won I just didn't like I got hit when I shouldn't have

got hit like something was off I didn't perform that well and I realized

somewhere along the line I think right around I was like probably 19 or 20 when I

really started to figure it out I was like oh you have to be scared

that thing that you're you don't like that's critical it's critical to your

performance because it keeps you on edge you have to be nervous you have to be Mike

Tyson talked about it there's a fantastic video of Mike Tyson from his

documentary where he's talking about his mindset leading to him getting into

the ring and that you know he he talks about see if you can find that Jamie

it's fucking excellent because this was Mike Tyson when he was Mike Tyson

when he was the most terrifying heavyweight boxer that ever walked the face of

the earth there was a period of time over like two or three years where I don't think

anybody has ever come close to Mike Tyson I know that's true he was just supreme

he was so good and so different than anybody before him but it was

also his mindset he's a great scholar of history you know I had a fantastic

conversation with him about Genghis Khan and when we started talking about

he knew Genghis Khan's real name his real name is Temujin he knew his history

that you know that such an interesting person I love to watch all his interviews he knew that

Genghis Khan's mother had been kidnapped by on her wedding day been kidnapped by

a rival man and taken away and impregnated and the man that she was supposed to

marry she never saw again and then that Genghis Khan was born with a blood clot in

his hand he was holding on to a blood clot as he as he was a young boy and it was

like a sign that he was going to be a great conqueror in a warrior but listen listen

to this I'm gonna have supreme confidence I'm scared to death I'm totally afraid

I'm afraid of having to name my freedom lose I'm afraid of being humiliated close I

get to a ring more confident I get closer more confidence I get all during my

training I've been afraid of this man but it was close I get to the ring I'm more

confident once I'm in the ring I'm a god no one could beat me

that's a abbreviated version of it it's different in the in the film it's like

a little bit more drawn out somebody edited that down for Instagram but

it's this thing where you would think how could that guy be afraid how is he

afraid he's Mike Tyson and this is Mike Tyson in his prime but you have to be

afraid you've got to be nervous if you're not nervous you're not going to

perform well well it makes me think about earlier in our conversation when I was

talking about oh you know when I think about when I was young and I be really

nervous and pretending I wasn't nervous and that was the problem and that

now I sit to you I still experience it I just know what to do yeah remember

like they're talking like that what I was what I know what to do is not to pretend

that I'm not nervous right that's it's as simple as that when when he's saying

I'm afraid that's very powerful it's kind of the same a different spin on what I'm

saying about it's okay to say I don't know yeah you know I am afraid and there's

there's a great Sarah Bernhardt story about this young actress comes up to

Sarah Bernhardt she's this great actress from the previous you know a long

time ago but this before Sarah Bernhardt was about to go on stage as a young

actress asked her to sign her program Sarah Bernhardt to get in her hands

were shaking and to see young actress said why are your hands shaking it was I'm nervous

and the young person said I'm never nervous when I act Sarah Bernhardt when you

know what you're doing you will be and that's great and it's a part of like

what you're talking about with your fighting knowing that there's nothing wrong

with anxiety and with nerves they can be your friend they are there they are

here to warn you prepare you make you train a little harder make you think a

little sharper yeah treating it like I'm embarrassed I'm ashamed of being

nervous you know Bill Russell apparently would like be sick to stomach before

ever given is the most winning basketball player in history he was still yeah

and that's why he wants so much right you know you have to care you have to

care and then strangely what that Tyson clip gets it if you can say

that the closer you get to game moment now you're not pretending and you realize

oh for me it's it's just a scene it's just a play it's just I can handle this

is you remember that Jaguar par and Paul in a pocket little when he has the

moment he's running to the woods and he's so afraid and he realizes this is my

forest you know he's like I don't know I don't have to be afraid in my forest

you know I'll fight these guys I don't want to stop running it's a great moment in

that movie yeah and I feel that way when before I'm doing something this last

movie I did Blue Moon really really challenging part I had so much confidence

when we were talking about making the movie then all of a sudden it was green

lit and so but like when I flew to the location and I saw the set and was like oh

it was the weekend before we started I got so nervous I got sick you know I woke

up in the middle of the night just in pools of sweat and in my body was just

like going Ethan this is going to are you ready are you ready you know and I

would wake up I would have to get up so early to go to work I'd wake up and I

wouldn't have before I was supposed like I got to go over these lines again I got

to go over this house this character walking what is he doing what is he saying is

is this part ready is this thing ready did they know what they're doing in that

shot just a cigars ready all the things one of the things that are going to be

the screw today up I guess how much can I see the day yeah so that none of these

things that might screwed up are gonna screw it up and so I kind of know what he

means when it comes to you pass through the fire so when it comes to fighting

ways either going to lose winter lose it's going to be okay but you know there's

something powerful at that anxiety can be a great friend his mentor custom

model yeah he's a completely fascinating guy he started hypnotizing Mike when

he was 13 one of the things that he told Mike he said fear is like a fire it

can cook your food or it can burn your house down yeah it depends on how you

control it feel the same way about money feel the same way about ego yeah it

can be the fuel of a healthy life but it has to be garden has to be managed

really well and it's sadly daily yeah daily it's not like you sure we're both

old enough to know it's not like you've some breakthrough when you're 33 I've

had breakthroughs I feel like oh I get it I get it I get it next it's gone you

know it happens to you over and over again and and I that's life I think yes that

is life yeah and that's that's great for young people to hear because they

think that there's gonna come a point in time when they made it where there's

no fear and I'm telling I'm here to tell you you don't want that you don't want

it it's never gonna come and you did come you don't want it it's it'll rob it

you of the exciting part of life you're here that Jim Carrey bid always makes

you laugh he's like he wins the golden globe he goes to bed at night he's like

gosh I'm a golden globe winner what if I could be a two-time golden globe

winner what if I could be a three you know the brain brain always wants more

always it's just it can't stop it that's why billionaires still work yeah yeah

why they're so miserable because it's just chasing numbers it's

chasing numbers one of the thing about when the rooms that I've been in with a

lot of money compared to the rooms I've been in with there isn't a lot of

money if you compare the laughter right yeah it's no context there's so much

pressure involved in that kind of why would you want a house with no

laughter you know I don't think they have options at that point I think they're

so locked into what they do and it's it gets so competitive yeah I've seen

guys like that who gets so happy about a deal gone right yeah that's it it's

fascinating to me I mean it's like I I wow I didn't but because because the

inverses true if that makes you so happy what happens if you lose that right

a million bucks or whatever 20 million and it makes you happy for a brief

amount of time because the reality is once you're wealthy everything else is

it my friend Brian says something to me a long time ago so the only amount of

money you want is where you can go to a restaurant and not worry with the

bill costs everything else is bullshit well I like it to what happens if you

get an offender bender you know I don't want to get an offender bender and have

a lot of trouble right like I wanted that to be taken care of right you don't

you don't want to not be able to pay your rent because you have a fender

bender you don't want your kid not to get their meds because you got a fender

bender you know like you like you need to have room a little a little padding to

like I've never there's no expense a vacation an expensive vacation with my

kids is not better than any vacation with my kids right right right right you

a romance same thing yeah yeah you know you can spend a fortune on a romantic

weekend it's not as great as it is get stuck in a car I went a blizzard out

right and you listen to a great record and she looks beautiful and says

something funny and you both left that's you can't buy that right and and but

there's this feeling like you could well our society puts so much emphasis on

ultimate success like who's the richest man in the world well do you think the

richest man of the world is happier than the 30th richest man in the world

they're all rich as fuck like everything is available to them it's all

nonsense after that after a certain point like what are you doing why you still

working why you still chasing zeros and ones like what is the point what are

you chasing me yeah I don't I don't think I'm chasing anything I try not to be

I just enjoy what I do I try to that's I don't relate to it because that's

what led me the question is like I'm like what am I chasing I you know what I'm

chasing what I said earlier like I um the last thing I shot we had a couple

moments of grace you know just where like I can tell the crews losing their

lunch and everybody's so happy with the take that we got and it's kind of

moving and how it was perfect and the light came to the window at the right

time and then Peter Dinklage said this hysterical thing and he wasn't supposed

to say it but it worked out perfect because then the other actress then she

responded in that way and then my hat fell off and everybody's and it's just

it's high and I drive home and I want to tell everybody and I can't wait for the

world to see it you know I am chasing that like could that happen again yeah you

know but it's not something I control it's not something that it's a

feeling I'm chasing but it's a tangible thing it's not status or money it's

you're chasing you're doing you know for lack of a better word art you know

and art has a sort of a pretentious heir to it a lot of people you know

there's there's certain words that have been sort of co-opted but the art of

creation you would never you would never I mean I know you're exactly right

it happens me all the time and it bothers me that what what people think is

pretentious and what people if I said you you know I really want to make

hundred million dollars nobody says I'm pretentious right if I say you know

I'd really like to make something to make something beautiful it really

moves people what a pretentious ass right yeah why isn't what I was gonna say

what you go first it's sincerity because some people say that and they don't

mean it and that's most of the people that say that and that's the

true what I was gonna say is like if you're you say 15 14 your daughter your

youngest yeah if you came home today and she had made this crazy collage and it

was combining pictures of her friends from high school and this beautiful

watercolor that she did around it and she sprinkled glue on it and dropped

sparkles on it and put it in a weird wood frame that her mother had given her

that she like and she said isn't it beautiful dad you would would you ever say

that's pretentious of course of course not yeah but the goal what I've when

somebody says the word art to me I don't hear pretentious I hear the solar

system yeah I hear like human creativity inside of us man it is inside me and

it's inside you and when I see a great movie or when I hear Jimmy Hendrix rip a

killer solo yeah then my whole body vibrates oh hey we're alive yes you know

when Johnny Cash comes out with a sound you've never heard before when it's a

great rap song you're like I got to hear that again I feel my heartbeat with

that that's art it's not pretentious it's it's it's it's real and and so I feel

that way very strong and that makes me want to go to set and that makes me

not care whether the movie makes a billion dollars it makes two cents there's a

great one of the great old English actor Paul Scofield I'm gonna destroy

this quote but it was in his obituary and he he was in this great movie one as a

kid man for all seasons and he was in Redford's quiz show and it was a great

English actor and when he died in his obituary there's an interview with him he

said you were performing King Lear at your local church then why weren't you

doing it on the west end you know because you were you were healthy enough they

were asking why are you doing he was doing a play at a local church near him you

see I really like what walking to work and I've realized that I really have

always only performed for whoever it was is that made me and I can do that

anywhere I can do it on Broadway I can do it in a Robert Redford movie and I

can do it in my local theater it's the same action and it's taking me a

lifetime to realize that it doesn't I just love to do it and he's like and I'd

like to walk to work so I'm not going to west end and I thought I love this guy

yeah well that is real purity yeah when you're you're not chasing any

prestige you're you're only doing it for the thing and I bet there are people

that he loved there of course other people you're doing it for yeah of course

yeah and it's probably more purity to it knowing that it's not gonna be

reviewed in the New York Times it's like you're doing something that you're

only doing it for the love of it and if you want to be but if you want to play

Pro Ball you know there's certain things you know if you're you know that all

the great time he used to coach for UT baseball is a great thing that he'd say

that why he didn't coach the Yankees or the Red Sox because he won five NCI

championships so the problem is with Pro Ball the object of game is to win

and in college sports my job is to develop young men

and if I do that right we will win but it's I like the priority and I feel like

if the priority is my own development you know yeah more times than not

something good will happen if my priority is to win make cash be a big shot

blah blah blah I've kind of lost why you should play the game

yeah you know 100% and the trick for me is well I do want to be a professional

actor I like I like being relevant I like making relevant art I like talking

to people and communicating with people so you have to figure out that balance

of like all right this is how I pay my bills this is you know what facilitates

our my whole life so I have to be a little attentive to the professional

part of my brain and not let it diminish the kid in me

yeah you know and to keep them both in some kind of balance

yeah and that's for me been my adult life that the term developing men are

developing people developing young people my martial arts instructor when I was

a young boy he there was like a pamphlet that they had released just

explaining what the classes were all about and in it one of the quotes that

always stuck with me forever is martial arts or a vehicle for developing your

human potential so is acting yeah surprise so so is anything so it's playing

chess yeah so it's playing music so it's carpentry if you do everything

everything yeah Miyamoto Musashi the famous samurai had a great quote once

you understand the way broadly you can see it in all things

yeah I carried the art of motorcycle maintenance it's the same idea yeah

there's it's the the real the the real beauty of it all is concentrating on

the development of the the thing and in that thing you will grow as a human

and that's the thing we're talking about boxing or fighting or acting or whatever

that the thing about that a hundred percent focus is it it's kind of

by shedding everything there's a discipline to that about seeing all the little

details I find for example in acting they always talk about this

is he a good listener like one of the things like are you responding naturally

like a human being can you listen and in the art of teaching myself to

about acting about how to be present with my scene partner I've learned how to be

present with you with my kids when I'm at a baseball game with my friends

right right actually it's like it's meaning I'm taking the same idea that

if you train to do a fight well and you really feel what excellence at that

level is like you can feel it in other things

it can translate you you know what sloppy thinking is if you've been relaxed

while you're doing something hard you know what it's like when you're tense

because you're not having that feeling that you had

in that fight where you were really great that's the same with my I've done

performances where it goes up all by itself and it's amazing feeling a lot of work

and preparation is to go into that feeling of disappearing but now I know when

it's not happening and it doesn't mean I can make it happen

but at least an awareness that it's not happening is a great starting place

to go why is it not happening right something smells something smells like

Phil yeah yeah I wanted to talk to you about because Jamie brought this up

yesterday uh Denzel Washington when you're doing training day like so much

apparently Jamie was saying of the dialogue that you guys had was completely

improvised by Denzel he is an astonishing

and that's like yes the short answer to your question is it was

we would be doing ridearounds you know in the back these cop cars watching these

arrests are talking to some of these people who really

lived the life that we were doing and they would say something really funny

you know and I would just see Denzel like glance at me

and I realized oh shit that just went in the computer you know and then it would

come out you know in a scene two months later

that line that that guy said exactly it would come out um it was a great

script I don't want to David Arrow script it's a phenomenal script I mean when I

read that script I wanted that part so badly

Denzel's one of my favorite actors he is probably my favorite actor um

I think you know Malcolm X and Raging Bull are two towering

maybe Nicholson one flip of cuckoo's nest like live as like the three

great performances of my lifetime um and but his

eight he's always listening always listening talking asking thinking curious

so present so commanding um and if you take responsibility

for your own work you can you can have a great experience

and if you don't he's will run you over

like I heard like King Kong ain't got shit on me that was all just completely

improvised so it's like towards the last day of the shoot

and um I had been when people say improvised they think oh just some magic

lightning bolt happened it's a month of work it was improvised

he's just supposed to yell fuck you or something as I'm walking away

in this monologue flew out of his mouth you know

y'all gonna be playing for the pelkin bay all stars

this is my neighborhood y'all just live here King Kong ain't got nothing on me

just all this stuff was and it was it was the last day shooting or

third the last day or something and it was all his prep

just he says this is here's here's a line that didn't make the movie here's

another line that didn't make them here's another thing I wanted to say here's

another thing and he just started throwing them all out there

and I I shit you not and um the shots um it's on me I'm walking out of the

you know walking away from me screaming all this stuff

and that's what I say I'm chasing the feeling

like that's one of the hot I mean to just be there that day

you know to watch you know a great somebody's working on a different level

than everybody else you know he's he you know he makes all of us look like

we're mastering checkers you know and and he's

and to but to be there and be part of the magic and I knew I'd I'd heard him

audition some of those lines other places you know we'd run lines together

and he tried this something as he was he was amazing

amazing that's what I mean about the power of his imagination he was

Alonso and anything that he would pick up or hear would go into the computer

and then it would he would look for the ways that it could help the script

look look for ways you know he wasn't uh you know he wasn't

putting selfishly tearing the sail up to make it about him he was always looking

to help I even remember he came to the set the day I have the scene that he's not

in with the the Cholo gang you know and they're

we're playing cards and you know you're right you should push in that scene

you know would they put me in the bathtub and then

Denzel came to set and he watched the scene he was like damn

like what this is gonna be the best scene in the movie and I'm not in it

hate to see it it's funny he walked away but it was it was very

great I mean he was all in that movie yeah that's awesome that's awesome

Ethan thank you very much man this is a really fun conversation I really enjoyed it

I'm really glad you had me thank you and thank you for all the movies man

if you can't tell it's been my pleasure thank you for mine as well thank you bye everybody