- Joe Rogan wants that, check it out.

- The Joe, Rogan, experience.

- Train my day, Joe Rogan podcast my night, all day.

(upbeat music)

- I don't know what to tell you about your new drink.

- Look at this red gummy fish.

I'm about to try it for the first time.

And this is a new tropic?

- Yeah, so it's, I think on the first episode maybe

that I did with you, robust there.

- That's good.

- Yeah.

- Oh, that's delicious.

- I mean, robust.

You're saying that you're potentially--

- Oh, both.

- Flavor and--

- I think it's great.

- Oh, right on.

- Red gummy fish, it's fucking delicious.

I drink the shit out of this.

- Oh, a lot of stuff in here, what's in here?

- So I think it was the first time I was on you asked me

about the reala mind and the new tropic formula

that I used before podcasts.

- Yeah.

- To get cognitively dialed.

And at the time it was a capsule based formula.

And it still is, it still exists.

But taking what we could to suspend in a liquid format

and getting it into something that's more like publicly

and widely accepted and that they would want

to drink on a regular basis.

And it's something you could use daily.

That's kind of what we did in this.

So we included essentially like a daily use version

of the gorilla mind formula, which includes the tyrosine

precursor for dopamine as well as other neurotransmitters

catacole amines like adrenaline, or adrenaline.

Also, alpha GPC, most bioavailable form of colina

crosses the blood brain barrier and is pretty efficacious

and also just a good colina source in general,

which most people are deficient in as a nutrients.

And I think completely unaware that it's actually important

to be supplementing with potentially.

Pretty hard to get an adequate amount of colina.

But what does it come from in food?

- Liver is a good source, eggs and in general,

it's just like the highly nutrition dense foods

that you would get it from.

A lot of people aren't focusing on specifically,

either because of caloric density or it's like an animal base

like nose to tail thing or fill in the blank.

It's not impossible to do it.

A lot of people who focus on it could probably

relatively easily, but it's still one of the things

you have to focus on actually kind of like

maneuvering into your diet typically.

So in general, most people are at least maybe like 50%

of the way that are at best.

And that's even among people who I would say are

relatively balanced diet individuals, but interesting.

So I'm sure you're familiar with colonurgics

and they're try act on cognition and whatnot.

Caffeine, tried and true.

- How much you got in here?

- 200 milligrams.

- Very difficult decision trying to come up with.

What is the amount you're gonna stick with

in perpetuity in this thing?

- Everyone's addicted now.

It's a real issue with caffeine.

- So it's like the fine line balance of not too much,

something that is still tolerable, sustainable,

gonna be widely accepted and widely impactful

on a beneficial level, but not overdoing it

and 200 is kind of what we landed on.

And then you're redeeming on a phosphate,

pretty unique ingredient.

I haven't seen anybody ever included in a drink

let alone even in supplements typically.

- What is it?

- So it's also something that operates

via the colonurgic system, but in a different way,

mainly it's utility is kind of enhancing your sensitivity

to stimulants.

So somebody who is otherwise desensitized

from like heightened exposure to things

that either desensitized them to caffeine

or nicotine or things of this nature,

even some like the ADHD medications.

This can actually at least the literature

suggest strongly that it enhances dopamine

neurotransmission potential.

So like almost restoring function

and damaged dopamine producing neurons in the brain.

So you can kind of get a heightened impact

out of the same level of stimulant.

So a caffeine dose that might otherwise be

you're used to it now.

You start to feel it again more than you used to

without having to increase your caffeine intake.

- Oh.

- Yeah.

So it's a pretty cool ingredient.

And it seems to have some neuro protective properties

potentially as well.

And some interesting literature on like Alzheimer's

and whatnot, but it's more like fringe

and to be determined how impactful it is.

And then on top of that, we have Althinian,

probably familiar effects stacked with caffeine

increases alpha waves, get for verbal fluency

as well as just general attention, concentration,

but keeping you a little bit more balanced and mellow

while you have the heightened stimulatory activity

from the caffeine and the other kind of like dopaminergic

compounds.

And then also saffron extract,

which is a totally unique inclusion in my opinion.

Still don't really see it in utropic formulas

a little bit in drinks and it's something

that's in literature as shown to be as efficacious

as pharmaceutical SSRIs without inducing

the same erectile dysfunction-inducing effects of it

and without causing the same anhydonia-inducing effects,

which is kind of like the muting of like pleasure

in the brain.

So saffron.

- Yeah, super interesting ingredients.

It seems to be pretty impactful for depression,

for anti-anxiety, and it also operates through

a seemingly different mechanism, even though it's often

stacked up against SSRIs for its comparisons

and outperforms them or matches it

with a relative lack of side effects.

It is something that operates through seemingly

antioxidant activity, some dopaminergic,

some serotonergic, and it's just a little bit more

of a benign way to achieve what is a similar outcome,

but with a seemingly lower, if not negligible,

to non-existent side effect profile.

I'm not saying that's what our drink does.

I'm just saying that's what the literature on saffron

doesn't anyone can go look that up and reference it.

And then who pairs the name?

Probably the most impactful acetylcholine

mistress inhibitor that you can include alongside

like choline precursors.

So it inhibits the breakdown of acetylcholine,

as opposed to being the fuel like the precursor

like choline acetylcholine, alpha-GPC, CDP choline.

These are things that provide the substrate

to actually produce the acetylcholine,

preventing the breakdown of it too,

could otherwise get like a one-two punch

where you get the heightened fuel substrate,

but then also an inhibition of its breakdown.

So yeah, just like a heightened level of cognitive capacity

through both like the one-two punch.

How did you determine these like doses

and what you were going to include and not include?

So a lot of it derived from the original capsule-based

formula, so back in, I don't know, 2021,

and I had already been using this thing

for daily use essentially.

And it was something that was determined based upon

years of experience, personal anecdotes,

but digging through hordes of clinical literature,

ultimately, there's a lot of these compounds

that have clinical studies on them for different applications.

You can kind of sift through what are the efficacious dosages,

where are they impactful?

Or as a sustainable level,

you could actually take this long term

without it being negatively impactful

because sometimes if you overdo it in one area,

over time, it might be problematic.

So trying to find the fine balance of where

is a dose that moves the needle,

but isn't going to kind of like push you

in too far of a negative direction that it's unsustainable.

Because sometimes that this stuff,

it's like a hammer solution.

You might see an energy drink that's like 300, 350 caffeine.

And it's like, okay, you know,

you've essentially like singled out a lot of the customers

who might otherwise benefit from it.

Even if there was other good stuff in the drink,

it's like only steam junkies can use it now, you know?

So this is kind of like the fine balance

of what I thought to be the most sustainable version

of balancing dopamine input, serotonergic activity,

getting some of that anti-anxiety support,

and also getting a reasonable headed caffeine.

- And did you, so in pill form,

so did you start out by using each individual supplement

and then trying to use them in combination

to see if there's a synergistic effect?

Like how did you do it over time?

- I guess maybe that's a bit more interesting

than digging through literature,

but when I was a university student,

just like being a nerd,

mixing stuff in my kitchen like a chemist essentially,

and just measuring raw powders back, you know?

In the day, what we would do,

or at least, you know, like biohackers and what have you,

we'd buy just like off of different websites,

raw bulk ingredients,

and then you'd measure it with little micro spoons

in these laboratory increments to try and get,

okay, the microgram equivalent of this,

and you'd make some disgusting shake with a concoction

of different unflavered powders

and create what is your ultimate kind of combination

through trial and error, ultimately.

- And were you like doing a diary?

Like today, I feel great.

- Yeah, it was just keeping a log almost like, you know,

working out like how did you respond

to the blank, or just taking into account

like sleep, all these different factors, diet, training,

- As training variables at the time,

obviously a bit more rudimentary and crude

when you're like 21 years old, and you're just kind of like,

get cognitively locked in to study for finals,

maybe inappropriate for children under 13,

now playing only in theaters.

Early days.

Yeah, that's when I first started fucking around with them.

Oh, yeah.

I first found out about Nero One.

That was the first one I found out about.

OK.

Did you ever try that one? Nero One.

It's Bill Romanowski's company, the football player.

So he developed it because he was having cognitive problems

after years and years of playing football.

And so he came up with this formulation.

And I was doing this radio show, Alice in No Name

in San Francisco.

And No Name's a dude, I forget his name, unfortunately.

I ride him, yeah, yeah, so long ago.

But he was working out with Romanowski.

Romanowski was trying to get him in shape.

And he gave him this stuff.

He said, hey, try it.

And it was, you know, I do morning radio.

When you're promoting, like I was doing Cobb's Comic Club.

When you're doing a Comic Club, you'd show--

this is back in the day when radio meant something.

You'd show up in the morning and you'd do the morning drive.

And they would go, oh, Joe Rogan's appearing

at the Comedy Club this weekend.

Come see him and you'd be funny on the radio

and have a good time with the people.

And he gave it to me and I was like, hey, man.

This stuff feels like something's going on.

Like this is legit.

And that's what really got me in--

that's how we developed Alpha Brain.

We developed Alpha Brain after me trying out Neuro1 saying,

can we optimize this?

Is there another way to do this?

Is there other forms that we're missing?

But your formulation seems like very comprehensive.

And also, fucking delicious.

Yeah, it's one of the difficult things, too,

is making it taste good while still being able to suspend

the active ingredients.

Because they could just fall out of suspension

or marry out of different issues.

Coordination problems, even exploding cans and transit

that you're not predicting are going to react

to a certain way.

Even the black lid, dude, it's stuff you don't even think of.

But it's absorbing heat.

It's like, oh, it's going to be more prone

to blowing up now, because of that.

Oh, because of a black lid.

Did you want a black lid just for aesthetics?

Yeah, at the time.

It was like, this looks cool.

Yeah, exactly.

And so what are you sweetening this stuff with?

Primarily superlose, which obviously,

some people have their opinions on it.

And that's totally fine and good.

But in general, based on clinical literature

seems to be well tolerated.

And what is the issue with it that people have?

I think some people think it depends on the person

and like the kind of content they make typically.

Typically, they have a bit of a bias.

Yeah, but in general, it's going to irritate your gut

or it could cause GI distress.

And for some people with extremely sensitive gastrointestinal

issues, it can, for sure.

But in general, the dosages used and just having it

even conservatively, which most people

are going to be, it's like pretty benign, at least

from the literature I've seen.

One of the things that we had noticed

when we first came out with alpha brain

was for some people.

It's a small amount.

But for some people, they would get headaches

and they felt terrible after taking it.

I don't know what they're dosing.

I don't know if they were taking the recommended dose

or if they were saying, well, too good, I'll take five.

And there's a lot of folks like that out there.

But--

Yes, some of these, if you're not careful,

it could be pushing you into--

we've vetted this out beforehand.

But one of the first formulations

were prototypes of guerrilla mind in the capsule form.

We had something called Velvet Bean Extract, which

standardizes to L-dopa.

So like levodopa is used for Parkinson's patients,

because it's a direct precursor to dopamine

without a rate limiting step that kind of, like,

ingit regulates the conversion.

So rather than using tyrosine, we were like,

we thought--

and we didn't end up releasing it because of this--

we could just go, OK, let's get a straight precursor

and see how impactful this thing is,

because we really wanted to hit.

And oh my god, I had dopamine overdose myself,

had my girlfriend at the time, also fuck herself up,

and my parents fucked themselves up.

And somehow it didn't occur until like three incidents later,

I'm like, OK, this thing is unsustainable.

And I guess my business partners didn't really even

think worth mentioning, which was kind of crazy at the time,

because they just trusted me to do the formulations and whatnot.

But they had the same experience and didn't bring it up.

And I'm like, god, it's like, we can't really do this shit.

It was just like way too intense.

What did I do to you?

Just like makes you extremely nauseous.

You feel like you have to keel over on a couch

and just lie there until you feel like you can actually

regain composure and start moving around again.

Really?

Yeah, dopamine-- a lot of people think

more is better, and you're going to have more motivation,

more drive, more-- the more of the better

is what a lot of people think.

But similar to probably even worse than stimulants,

because at least stimulants, you have a direct biofeedback

through your heart rate going through the roof,

and you're getting the anxiety with dopamine

if you overdo it with something that you can't rate limit.

Either you just get sick, and you just end up

having to lie down for hours.

Interesting.

One thing I like about a drink versus a pill form

is that you can just take a little--

Yeah, you can meter your drinks.

Yeah, because you take a pill, you're taking a pill.

It's like, unless you want to cut pills in half

or pour some of the capsule out, no one's doing that.

But this is nice, because you can just kind of

sip a little bit of it.

How many of these can you drink in a day?

I could drink a lot, personally.

Like, you don't even want to know, dude.

How many do you drink a day?

On a typical day, probably two to three,

but I-- What's recommended?

Check the warning label, bro.

What does the warning label say, bro?

It must say no more than two a day,

but I would say on a podcast, not more than one,

is what I would recommend.

Yeah.

Well, especially with all that caffeine, as well.

Yeah, you never know.

In general, 400 milligrams is even like the FDA stated.

Everyone's going to be OK, probably dose.

But in reality, it's kind of crazy.

A lot of people don't realize the studies done for caffeine

induced performance enhancement are all looking at like three

to six milligrams a kilogram, which is like,

unless you're a tiny woman, 400, 500, 600 milligrams,

are the doses that actually really move the needle

when it comes to acute performance enhancement.

Chale Sun needs to take it in pill form.

Yeah.

Because he was saying that there's a level where

a little test you, well, you'll pop where they'll say,

OK, you're in a stimulant level.

Like you took a stimulant before you fought.

Yeah, they had threshold concentrations

that they would deem inappropriately high,

perhaps for safety, perhaps because I

thought it was an unfair advantage.

Just kind of--

I think that's what they were looking at.

It kind of depends, though, because I think it was removed.

And I don't think that threshold exists anymore,

except in the NTA.

I'd have to revisit it.

But I'm pretty sure caffeine is like, essentially,

you could go full borough at this point.

Interesting.

So 500, 600 milligrams was what the efficacious dose was?

So you can get performance enhancement as low as,

I think, some people was like a milligram per kilogram.

It depends on the person and tolerance, of course.

But in general, the most tried and true studies

are when it comes to repeatable high impact

with a proportional relative lack of side effects,

but not none was like, 3 to 6 milligrams a kilogram.

And some of the studies go even higher than that.

Interesting.

And what are the benefits?

What did they get?

Like acute strength enhancement, offsetting

like any sleep-induced deprivation performance

outcomes mentally.

You can pretty much offset a shitty night of sleep

and all the kind of detriment to your performance

via a pretty solid dose of caffeine.

Yeah, most of the stuff is kind of energy

acutely offsetting performance decrement related,

but also in a context of strength, high intensity activity,

you can absolutely get a benefit from it.

And there's a reason why sprinters will take

medicinal or high dose caffeine

or power lifters will take massive doses

of pretty workout before a lift or whatnot.

It's all impactful for your psychological state

to get really locked in in a hyper-vigilant state

to really max out on what you're trying to do,

whatever it may be.

This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Celter.

A nice cold, happy dad is low carbonation, gluten free,

and is easy to drink.

No bloating, no nonsense.

and get one free.

Enjoy a cold, happy dad.

Must be of legal drinking age.

Please drink responsibly.

Happy dad, hard celtzer.

TN lemonade is a malt alcohol

located in Orange County, California.

- I had a podcast of the day with Chris Masterjohn.

Do you know who he is?

- Yeah, he's great.

- Great.

And we were talking about the impact of creatine.

And they're trying to figure out what is the correct dose.

And a lot of people are going 20, 30.

They're getting pretty high.

'Cause the recommended was like five milligrams, I think.

And now everyone's saying actually,

the real benefits are at 20 and at least 10.

But you're getting a lot of what happens

when people have sleep deprivation.

And I'll butcher the science.

So I won't try to repeat it.

I don't recommend anybody listening to the episode.

But what he was essentially saying

was it bypasses all of the problems that occur.

And you could at least have a bridge

to your performance would not be impeded by a lack of sleep.

At least for a temporary, for a day or whatever.

- Yeah, definitely want to touch on that.

But one thing to mention on the caffeine too is,

I think a lot of people when they hear the stuff like,

I heard you can go up to 20 grams of creatine

or the highest impact dose in caffeine literature

is three to six milligrams of kilogram.

It's not like I or I imagine Chris

is like blindly recommending anybody start there.

And it could easily get misconstrued that way.

And like a clipable format of people

was just like hear the headline and then run with it.

And you should start as low as you can with caffeine

and you could get a organic effect as low as,

I think the lowest dose was like 50 to 100 milligrams,

probably if you equated to body weight.

But it's all like tolerance dependent.

It's just when you look at the studies,

like these are the repeatable high impact outcomes

or typically in, and especially in like trained athletes

who you're trying to see how hard you can push them.

It's kind of like, you know, for max stress resilience,

max, you know, acute force production,

these are the kind of dosages

that are just used in the studies.

So anyway, with that caveat and same with the creatine,

you know, you might shit yourself

if you go to 20 right away.

- Right.

- You don't want to start there.

- A lot of people do apparently.

- Yeah, and I mean like, like Rhonda Patrick,

amazing content, and she tolerates 20 grams well,

which is kind of like surprising,

'cause I know a lot of women who don't.

I think she does a probably microdoses it throughout the day

and is really regimented about making sure

she's diligently spreading it out,

but some people who they bomb 20 at a time,

even guys who think they have iron stomachs.

- Just shit a little bit.

- It's like so much powder too.

It's just the fact that you're consuming all this powder.

- Yeah.

Oh yeah, speaking of which,

are you still doing the like million gummies today?

- Of what?

- Of creatine.

- No.

- You said you were gonna crank that shit up?

- Yeah.

- That's 20 grams.

- I stopped with the gummies and I went to powder form.

- Oh, okay.

- 'Cause I felt like I'm tired of eating these fucking things.

- You got up to like, what, like 10 plus a day.

- Or more.

I was eating like 15 a day, 15 gummies a day.

- But the issue is like, what else is in the gummies?

You know, what are the other things?

- Yeah, they're not gelatin and powder is other.

It's kind of just like.

- If I'm gonna eat candy, you know,

kind of want it to be like good candy.

- Yeah, I don't even know what it's sweetened with.

They taste good, but the point was it's like,

I didn't like eating them.

I was eating, I was like forcing myself to chew these things down.

I'm like, what am I doing?

I could just mix creatine and a glass of water,

stir it up real quick and just chug it in five seconds

and we're done.

I don't have to chew and swallow all these stupid fucking gummies.

- I know.

- But I do keep 'em.

I keep 'em around 'cause I think it's a great thing

like if I hadn't had enough lately, I'll just pop a few.

- It's like the best gateway drug, if you can even call it,

it's not like a drug, but to get people

who otherwise would never try it

to actually see the benefits of it.

- Right.

- So like, I know so many women who literally refuse

to take the powder 'cause it's like,

even though it's kind of tasteless,

it's still a nuisance, can be a little bit messy

depending on the scoop or shape of it and everything

how you're gonna try to convince a chick like,

it trusts me, it's really good for your health

if you like, you know, fucking swig this thing dry

and then chase it with water every day.

- It's not the easiest sell every time.

- They're like, "Fuck you, I don't care."

- So the gummies are good for that in my opinion.

- Yeah.

- And yeah, I mean, going back to the 20 grams

and the offsetting of performance deteriorations,

I do think it's basically offsetting kind of the deficiencies

in ATP production, especially locally in the brain

and also kind of offsetting the pulling of resources

away from like methylation support and whatnot

in order to produce the endogenous creatine as well.

These things can all be impactful to kind of like,

get you back to almost baseline.

So if you're in a deteriorated state,

being able to offset the performance decrements

from and otherwise, you know, sleep deprived state

or, you know, you're traveling or what have you,

like it can absolutely be super impactful

and the literature is shown that time and time again.

- What's interesting is that creatine in the 1990s

was thought of like steroids.

- Yeah.

- I mean, it was really like frowned upon like,

"Oh my God, someone's taking creatine, they're cheating."

It was really, that's like how it was first introduced

to the market.

- You have to hide it from your parents

when you're in teenager.

- Really?

- Yeah.

- Well, at least when I was a teenager,

it was kind of like, it had a taboo still.

It was like, you know, kind of like steroids light version.

- Well, it's 'cause it works.

- Yeah, and parents,

but they hear the stigma in the taboo.

So see, like I heard creatine and they're selling it

at the GNC's, you know, better watch out for that one.

- Meanwhile, they had real steroids at GNC.

- Oh, yeah, the irony too.

- Yeah, I mean, they like fucking M1Ts

over the counter from, you know, like some 19 year old kid

who's just like, manning the counter,

and doesn't care and like fuck your endocrine system up

to sell it to you.

- 100%.

I took some stuff called mag 10.

Do you remember that?

- Emma, if I saw the ingredient deck,

I'm sure it's just like some fucking run in the mill

at one tea product or something.

- Gained like 10 solid pounds of muscle in a month.

- And I bet your liver markers,

not that you did blood work back then.

- Which is destroyed.

- Yeah, like worse than if you took like injectable trend

even. - Right, right.

- Yeah, it's crazy.

- Yeah, well, 100% to kill my deck afterwards too,

when I got off of it, I was like, what's going on?

And I was like, oh, this is a real steroid.

- Yeah, and it's like, you're not giving the PCT

from the guy at the counter.

- I mean, I felt like a fucking gorilla when I was taking it.

I felt so strong when I was taking it, I literally gained,

I think it was like I was on it for five or six weeks

and I gained 10 solid pounds of muscle.

- The amount of people that have inadvertently gotten

kind of comastia from those days when they were sold

some irresponsible proven over the counter

without like any knowledge of what they were taking,

and then had to just recover naturally with no support.

- It's a shame.

- Yeah, well, there was so much of that stuff.

Like, werewolf blast.

- Oh, there it is, yeah, it's a dragon dick.

You could buy them, and they were just pills.

They were just regular pills.

- The stimulants are crazy too.

Like, a fedron was over the counter,

and like, so weird in Canada for relatively recently,

even, it was still available over the counter,

even though Canada is like super tight on regulation

when it comes to the most weird stuff.

Like, when it comes to caffeine,

you can't even have a can with 200 milligrams.

It has to be like 180 or lower.

Why exactly?

I don't know.

But that is a thing as well as limitations

on basic amino acids.

It's like tyrosine if it's more than like 10 milligrams

or something.

- Amino acids.

- Yeah.

- That's hilarious.

- Yeah, it's crazy.

- Like, based on what?

- Nonsense.

- Yeah.

- Oh gosh, fucking nanny's date.

- But anyway, so a fedron, for whatever reason,

was still over the counter available in GNC's

up until like a handful of years ago,

and it was, you know, the best cellar in GNC's

and a lot of supplement stores,

not just because it worked as, you know,

like a bronco dilator,

but also because people were buying it in bulk to make meth.

(laughing)

- I believe it.

I took Rip Fuel once for Jiu Jitsu, right before Jiu Jitsu,

and I had a stop in the middle of the class.

I was like, I gotta sit down.

I pulled over to the side of my guys.

My fucking heart is beating on my chest.

And I was explaining, I don't remember how many I took,

but I took some Rip Fuel.

I was like, well, it's good to lift with.

I'll try it for Jiu Jitsu.

It's fucking, for something that like really taxes

your cardiovascular system, it was horrendous.

- Resting heart rate of like 120.

- Right away, I was tired.

Like right away.

Like right away, like we start rolling.

I was like, God, I'm fucking exhausted.

My heart's beating out of my chest.

- But in your brand, you're like,

"This feels good."

- I thought it was hot.

- I knew I fucked up.

- I knew it, I did it once, and I never did it again.

- If you're doing that sport,

but for a guy who's going to the gym,

and this holds like, this is the shit, bro.

- If you're just lifting, yeah.

If you're just going for like Max Bench,

that kind of shit.

- Anybody watching will know, you know,

the original, have you heard of Jack 3D?

- Yeah, I took that too.

- Yeah, she was nuts.

- And what's crazy, too, is back then,

it was proprietary blends in a lot of the products,

and it was still the norm with no education available,

no YouTube to really tell you what to look for.

- Also, no oversight.

- Yeah, so these companies would basically sell you

for, you know, 50 bucks, a tub of like a powder,

flavored tub of just like the stimulant.

And then it was like all the other ingredients

for vasodilation, they're like, fuck you,

you're just getting DMA, bro.

- Yeah, you were just getting like straight meth.

- Yeah, yeah.

- It was crazy.

There was so much, those were the wild west days

of like GNCs and like local vitamin shops.

- Yeah.

- Because you could get stuff that really worked.

Like worked like something that's highly illegal,

and you could buy it with a credit card.

- And the sales tactics were just like so ruthless,

but you couldn't really prove them otherwise.

Like it was always like a pit bull with like giant muscles

with a cover of it with like lightning bolts.

- Yeah.

- It's funny to you because some of these companies,

it's like now we're in the mix competing

with them on shelves or whatever,

but I remember being like convinced back when I was a teenager

by them, oh, you need, you know, gackic,

luchic and creakic in this combo that cost 250 bucks.

- Yeah.

- And it's like, you know, literally a press tablets

of like glutamine or something at a dose

that doesn't even help.

And they're telling me like this would jiggle

or use to fuckin' preferably Olympia.

- Sure.

(laughing)

It was like, look at the before and after of Lee Prius.

He lost like 50 pounds of pure fat

and kept all his muscle from cell tech.

- Oh, that's a dirty thing about those bodybuilders

back in the days.

They couldn't admit that they were on gear.

So they were all just telling you they were taking this stuff

and then they would be spokespeople for it

and it's, God, it was so deceptive.

It was so creepy and you would have to know someone

at the gym.

You know, I would just be born to be like me, Haney.

Like, no, that's not how he got that way.

- Yeah.

- You gotta take the real stuff.

This is what he's actually taking.

So many people didn't think that those bodybuilders

were on like hardcore steroids.

- Yeah, a lot of, yeah.

It's a deception at a mass scale for sure.

I don't know.

- The whole sport?

- Yeah.

- The whole sport was just a complete like,

three-card money game.

- Yeah.

It's crazy 'cause now it's almost full circle

'cause I was back then, you know,

at least at the time when I didn't know any better.

Oh, you know, I guess this guy must be natural

'cause he told me so or whatever.

And it's like, I'm skeptical, but like,

and, you know, in hindsight, it's absolutely ridiculous.

But now a lot of bodybuilders are pretty forthcoming

'cause it's more normal to be transparent

and also not mislead people and, you know,

unethically sell things and just reality check people

and what it's gonna take to be at that level

and is it the risk you wanna, you know,

subject yourself to because back in the day too,

it was like, you didn't know if you had good genetics

or not when it came to certain dosage responses.

So you would like, always think the next guy's just

taking more than you.

It would result in guys unspokenly thinking,

this guy must just be taking five X, the amount of shit I'm on.

So I need to go to like five to 10 grams

of total gear per week now and you would just like,

that's what led to so many early deaths

and bodybuilding, too.

So.

- I think there's another thing, another factor is that

the consequences of lying and getting caught now are huge

because if you lose all credibility and people know

that you're just a bullshit artist--

- Yeah, that's it.

- And then they'll never trust you again.

Like, you have one chance to tell the truth forever.

- Yeah.

- And the moment you violate that, you're always a liar.

And that's a giant fucking issue with whether it's actors

or anybody, you know, like all these guys who prep for roles

and they're talking about it now.

Like, oh, I took Anavar, I took this, like Mickey Rork did

when he was talking about that movie, The Wrestler.

You know, I remember they were asking him

on whatever talk show he was on.

He's like, oh, I fucking took everything.

What are you talking about?

I took-- - That guy was a shy

and ear of interviews for that kind of stuff.

- Well, he's a wild dude, he'll tell the truth.

Yeah, but you have one chance to tell the truth forever.

- Yeah.

- You violate that and you're always gonna be a bullshit artist.

- Yeah, a guy who's pretty good about that now

is a Frank Guerrilla.

- Yes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- He was doing some like men's health thing.

And I have never seen men's health talk about steroids

forthcomingly.

- Interesting.

- Yeah, so they had him on a sit down interview.

And they were like, so, you know,

what's it take to be-- - Is this recent?

- Yeah, so he lasted with him last year.

- Oh, right.

- It's not months ago.

- Is this one he was talking about Anavar?

- Yeah, and he talked about his TRT protocol

and kind of like the realities of how impactful it actually is

and improving his performance and how it makes him feel.

And he was just like pretty non-trigger coated about it.

- Well, he's a good example because he was clean

for a long time.

- Yeah.

- Like he had like very low testosterone

because he was just going on willpower.

He was really just working out on willpower.

Actress Dar lives the lid on fitness recovery

in the reality behind the scenes physiques.

Frank Hill's 60 gets real about Hollywood steroids.

They all do it.

That is a fact.

But he was not on anything for a long time,

like deep into his 50s and he got his testosterone take.

He's good friends with Brian Calon.

And, you know, he got his testosterone taken.

It was fucking nothing.

He had like zero.

But he was just very disciplined and working out hard.

But he didn't look like he was on gear.

He just looked like he was ripped.

He was like shredded.

He was like in really good shape

'cause he trained every fucking day

and he was doing a lot of boxing.

So a lot of like heavy caloric expenditure,

a lot of like long rounds, hitting the back,

and many others.

Tax Act, let's get them over with.

- It's about as like his testosterone

when he got a test, it was super low.

- Yeah, yeah, it's probably one of the few examples

that are actually still to this day, though,

if somebody being like a really transparent,

I actually saw the rock talking about peptide use recently,

which is kind of like a...

- Interesting.

- Yeah.

- Dipping his tongue in the water.

- Yeah, exactly.

- He's lost a ton of weight, man.

- Oh, dude, yeah, he kind of crazy.

- Yeah, and there's a lot of speculation about

if it's like a health thing or what,

but that's tough to know because he just had the role

where he gained the most eyes he ever has, too.

- Right, right, but that, I think I got that

out of be terrible for him.

- Oh, for sure.

- But it's like, would you have subjected yourself to that

if you knew, I don't know if he would have known,

but you would have thanked proactively,

he would know how close he is to kind of like an issue,

being probably pretty close, 50 years old,

and getting up to 300 pounds.

- Yeah, I just mean, I think he probably had more

preventative screening before that role

to know he could even subject himself to it without dying,

'cause it's like a pretty risky endeavor

to go become the biggest you've ever been at that age.

So to then downsize after the theory is that

he was literally about to die essentially.

So that's why he lost so much weight now.

And I'm thinking, I think maybe he's just like,

trying to take like a health phase

and kind of like come down and wait for a bit,

and he'll probably like crank it back up.

- Honestly, I think just this is pure speculation,

I haven't talked to him about this.

I think based on what he tried to do with this matching machine,

I think he's trying to win an Oscar

and he's trying to be a real actor,

'cause he was really good in that movie.

Did you see it?

- Not yet, planning on it though.

- It's the best mixed martial arts movie ever.

That's not saying a lot, 'cause they all suck.

But it is the most accurate in terms of historical matches.

Like they had all the matches like with the eager

of a tension, all these different people that he fought,

that Marker actually fought.

And it's just a good movie.

It's a really good movie.

Like Emily Blunt plays his crazy girlfriend,

and she's out of her fucking mind.

And to the point where they're arguing right before he fights,

and you're getting anxiety watching like,

"Oh, Jesus, fucking Christ."

It's just such a crazy toxic relationship.

It is Emily Blunt, right?

I didn't fuck that up, did I?

That is, she's fucking great in it too.

It's just a really good movie

that I think would have gotten a lot more credit

if it wasn't a mixed martial arts movie.

Because I think mixed martial arts movie is like,

"Oh, it's some fucking meathead."

Like, rah, rah, rah, you know, bullshit movie.

But it's a very good movie, and he is Marker.

- Oh, he was so accurate.

- So good, and not just the fighting stuff, man.

The fighting stuff was great, but the acting stuff,

like he played that guy, and I know Mark.

I was like, "Fuck, that's Mark, that's nuts, it was so good."

It was a really good movie.

So what I think he's doing is the same thing

Batista's doing, Dave Batista for inverse.

- Well, Dave Batista lost a lot of weight too.

- Yeah, but I guess I mean like,

typically when actors are trying to get taken more seriously

for more impactful artists to creative roles,

it's almost like the Jack Meathead guy downsizes

to do something more, you know, like,

I don't know, artsy?

- Yeah, but like, this is getting as yoked as possible

in order to be the art, or as Batista's like,

fully downsize, I think now.

- Yeah, but I think what I'm saying is now,

what he's doing now, I think he's probably trying

to get different kinds of roles, roles where like,

I mean, if you've ever met him,

it's like a superhero, he looks like a superhero.

Like, we worked out together.

He came to the gym and I brought a bunch of comedians,

we worked out and hung out.

Like, Tony Klinchcliff was in his glory,

'cause you know, he loves wrestling.

We're all in the sauna together hanging out

with the rock.

- There was the first time he probably

still doesn't know that he uses a gear.

- What's that?

- He probably still doesn't know that he uses a gear.

- What do you mean?

- Klinchcliff is just like,

- Oh, Klinchcliff doesn't know that he knows he uses a gear.

- I still remember the episode where he was dumbfounded

that you and Job thought that he was doing anything.

(laughing)

- Tell me, he is locked into being a 12 year old

pro wrestling fan for the rest of his life.

It's like a religious thing for him.

It's like, you know, Mary was a virgin.

(laughing)

She gave birth to Jesus.

Like, I'm not kidding.

Like, he fucking loves pro wrestling so much

that he is completely locked in.

- He's a good example though of like,

a reasonably in-the-no guy who has friends in the space too.

Like you and, you know, Job know about this stuff.

- Yeah.

- And even he was like surprised that you guys thought that

at the time.

- It is funny.

It is funny when you think about it.

- So imagine just the average person, they probably, you know.

- Right, and also he's, you know, been very coy about it

and saying, actually not really coy, probably deceptive, right?

- Just like strategically perfect in his tax

when it comes to avoiding it.

- Yes, that's the best way to describe it.

Instead of saying, I've never taken any steroids,

he's kind of like, look over there.

(laughing)

- Yeah, exactly.

- But everybody who knows knows, you know,

it's one of those things.

It's like, you look at him and you're like, there's no way.

There's no way, there's just no way.

- I think I can't imagine talking about peptides

and putting the feelers out there

would not eventually transition to like, you know.

It was recommended to me by my doctor to be on,

you know, hormone support or whatever.

- 100%.

- Yeah, like I mean, you're kind of in that realm talking

about it at this point, you know.

- Just come out and say it.

I've always just come out and said it.

I don't see any problem with it.

But I don't have that kind of a reputation.

Like the problem of like being the pro wrestling thing

is like your role model for the youth and, you know,

you have to, especially a guy like that.

He's a giant movie star.

You don't want to be telling everybody you're on gear.

- They probably wasn't for like a big chunk

of his early career.

- His early career, right.

Yeah, his early career, I don't think he was.

- I guess the problem is when you're like,

when I really became successful,

is when I just sauce my face off.

- Yeah, that's the thing.

When he became a superhero.

I mean, the first time I met him,

he had cowboy boots on, so he's even taller.

And he just looked like a fucking brick shit house.

I'm like, I think I'm not even a real person.

This isn't a real person.

This is a superhero.

- Yeah, yeah.

I, yeah, it's crazy, dude.

But I think he's still jacked.

- He's still proportionally to relative to what he was.

- Yeah, it's kind of like anybody he used to be

a bodybuilder or had significant amounts of stuff.

Even me, people in my videos are like,

where you're, you know, you've lost everything.

And it's like, okay, I'm not like non-existent anymore.

I'm just like not a bodybuilder anymore.

You know what I mean?

- Yeah.

- With him, it's like, he's still yoke.

He's like, two, thirty, two, four, or whatever.

- Yeah, the thing is like, super gear heads

were always criticized.

Oh, you were going to a fucking trip now.

They get crazy.

They said that about Batista, too.

But he's like, two-forty.

- I think you just gotta stop wearing

like the weird tapered Gucci suits.

So just make some look a little bit more slender

than it is not complimentary to his physique.

He's still jacked, too.

- Yeah, but it does, it is complimentary.

If you didn't know what he used to look like.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- What's crazy?

Like you look at him, the guy looks fucking great.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, objectively, if you just look at it

with no baseline.

- Like pull up a photo of day Batista now.

- And he's also just getting older.

Like there's gotta be some level

where you get acceptance of like,

okay, you're allowed to the outside so you don't die.

- Yeah, you could die, that's the thing.

You're, if you're pushing gear at that age.

So there's, yeah, like look at Batista on the right.

You wouldn't say that's a small guy, you know?

That's not a small guy.

He's a big fucking dude,

but he's just slimmer now.

He looks like, like, if you saw him at like Alex Pereira,

you don't think Alex Pereira is small,

but you know, he's 200 and fucking 40 pounds.

- Yeah, if he was bodybuilding for a while

and then designed to convert to, you know, MMA.

- That's the thing.

But he also got, like that's what he looks like now.

Like that's not a small guy.

- Yeah, and he's like, I don't know how old, but I mean.

- That's 2025, he's gotta be 50, 56, 56.

So that's, he's fucking shreddy, he looks fucking gigantic.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, I think he actually did a role recently

where he bulked up what I think about it.

He went to, like, it was like fat weight too, which is crazy.

- Yeah, that was that glass onion.

Was that what it was called?

There was some, some movie that he did.

It was a really good movie.

It was a movie where like some billionaire

had everybody come to his island for some crazy party

and there was a murder.

What was that called?

- I think it was glass onion, but I don't know if it was glass onion.

- He was huge for glass onion.

He got gigantic, he got big for something else too.

But I think he was like playing, I don't remember what his role was,

but playing some former athlete or something along those lines.

- Yeah, he was housey, dude.

- It's weird when you get really big for a movie that sucks.

You know what I mean?

Or kill yourself for a movie that sucks.

- Yeah, I hope it did well.

- Like Jesus.

- Christian Bale did that for the machinist.

He almost died.

- 75 pounds again for Knock at the Cabin.

- Oh, that's what it is.

Not, what was that movie?

Show me what that looked like.

- Oh yeah.

- Screen.

- Knock at the Cabin.

What was that movie?

- A horror movie on, I did not watch it.

- Wow.

- A horror movie, huh?

- Do you watch horror movies?

- Oh yeah, I love a good horror movie.

He was 315.

- Yeah. - Jesus.

- So now he's 240.

Yeah, it's much, much more sustainable.

Yeah, but that's like a weird weight.

That's like, what the fuck did he get that big?

And again, he probably did that at like 52,

which is fucking dangerous.

- Yeah.

- You've probably got sleep apnea,

you're all fucked up.

- Yeah.

- At least they're under that too recently.

- She did it for monster.

- I know, no, again.

- She did it again.

- Yeah.

- Don't do that.

- Blood Charlies.

- Oh God.

- That's real?

- Yeah.

- What is it for?

- I forget the movie.

I just saw this movie the other day.

- I think some women, they're probably like a lady like her,

the public, Tully.

- I don't know if that is.

- Might not be new.

- I just saw it.

- It's such a flex when you're a hot lady

to get fat and gross.

And like when she did monster,

she shaved her eyebrows off.

- Did you see the Sidney Sweeney like boxing?

- I didn't see that.

- Not that she got fat and gross,

but like she gained some weight.

- Ditchie?

- Yeah.

- That movie got zero attention.

The Christie Martin movie.

- Oh yeah.

- 'Cause it was like three decades past

when anybody gave a shit.

- Oh.

- You know what I mean?

- I at least got the impression I haven't watched it.

So I could be way off based that it was kind of like

one of those artistic kind of like,

probably look at my versatility in roles kind of setting.

- Yeah.

- Oh what do I know?

- I don't know what I'm talking about.

- In that movie, did she gain weight?

They might have put her in a costume.

- Well, they said she gained like 30 pounds of muscle

or something, which is like the typical headline nonsense.

- Yeah.

- Poor shit.

- But she definitely like, you know,

took it seriously and gained the weight

that she needed to look whatever the role was for sure.

- Yeah, that's such a weird thing though.

The acting world, you have to really change your,

like Robert Jeneiro was the first guy to do it

for "Raging Bull."

- You remember Tom Cruise in "Tropic Thunder"?

- Yeah.

- Yeah, but that was a fat suit.

- Oh yeah, yeah.

- Yeah.

- I mean, 'cause they made his forearms fat,

shaved his head.

He was fucking great in that movie.

- It's like a movie.

- Oh fuck, what a movie.

That was the last bang before "Woke."

It was the last movie that you could ever do

like that before "Woke" kicked in.

And essentially ruined great comedies.

'Cause you couldn't go too far.

You can't do that anymore.

You just get in trouble.

- Yeah, it's like back then.

If you were to ask, okay, you know,

have a hit list of just like,

ready to laugh your ass off movies

that are just like low effort.

You don't have to think too much.

You can just sit down and enjoy.

There's a bunch of bangers from back then.

- Yeah.

- But it's like, now it is.

I mean, know what to go to.

- They don't happen anymore.

Like the "Farelly Brothers" movies,

like "Kingpin", "Fucking Great" movie.

You know, there's so much something about Mary.

There's so many of those like outrageous hysterical movies

that it was funny, I asked Robert Downey Jr.

I was like, I go, you couldn't do blackface

in a movie today goes, oh, you could do it.

But what would happen afterwards is the big deal.

He got it in like, it's like the scene in a movie

where the elevator door closes right before the monster gets

to you.

He got there just in time.

- Hey, like it was perfect timing where you didn't suffer

from it.

- No, yeah, it's crazy to see the Delta and just like,

I don't even know what to watch right now Netflix now.

- Well, with comedies, it's really fucking hard.

It's really hard.

The only thing that's really wild and free is standup comedy.

Like to do a comedy movie and just go full-tropic thunder.

It's almost impossible today.

- Yeah.

- But if somebody did it, if somebody just self-financed it,

oh my god, it would fucking kill.

It would make so much money and then it would open

up the floodgates because people still want that.

They still, it's not that you agree with everything

these people are saying and doing.

It's comedy.

I don't agree with John Wick killing everybody.

You know what I mean?

But he's not really killing everybody.

It's a fucking movie and it used to be that you knew that

when you went into these movies before everybody was looking

for everything to potentially be offended by.

It's just like ruined everything.

- What do you watch now?

- I don't watch comedies anymore.

- But like, just in general, do you have any like,

kind of just like low barrier or just like sit down

and turn my brain off.

- Oh, there's a lot of great stuff.

You know what I watched last night, Jamie?

You recommended Pluribus?

Is that what it's called?

- Holy watch the first episode.

- Holy shit.

- Holy shit.

Holy shit is a good, holy shit is a good.

It's a new Apple show.

And I don't want to give away too much,

but it has something to do with aliens.

And aliens send a transmission to earth.

And there's this insane impact on society.

But it's like fucking total left field movie.

You don't see it coming.

It's crazy or not movies, television show.

And again, like Jamie, I've only seen the first episode.

But it's great.

It's like holy shit, it's giving you anxiety.

- It's so good.

- Did you guys watch, what was that other Apple show

that was really good?

It was like in a office setting.

I can't believe I'm forgetting.

- Sevens.

- Yeah.

- Sevens is great.

Especially the first episode or the first season.

First season was great.

After a while they get a little weird.

'Cause you're like, you're running this very strange game

that you're doing.

Like, people remember and don't remember.

And then you're fucking with the guy's head.

So you can remember and they should.

- Yeah.

What about a stranger thing's in it?

Those are two that my girlfriend has me watching right now.

- I watched the first episode of Stranger Things

last night as well, or yesterday as well.

That was great.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, that's a, dude, it's kind of crazy.

How much time is between these seasons now?

It's like you finish.

I almost like can't, oh, don't want to commit to something.

'Cause it's like, well, if I like it.

- Yeah.

- Fuck you to me, you know?

- Fuck you.

- It really makes three years.

- Yeah. (laughs)

Game of Thrones.

It's a great example, though.

- Oh, dude, how's the dragon?

Like, good luck seeing the next season, bro.

Well, not only that, like,

unfortunately with House of Dragons,

it's got a follow game of Thrones,

which is like one of the best series of all time.

And the characters just aren't as compelling

for whatever reason.

And so I don't know who the fuck anybody is.

So the new season starts, I'm like, who's that?

- Yeah, and maybe I just have like monkey brain,

but I'm watching.

I'm like, I didn't see a dragon the whole fucking episode.

(laughs)

- I need a dragon.

- I feel ripped off.

- Yeah, I need a dragon and I need that dragon

to fucking kill somebody.

I need to burn somebody alive.

- Yeah, there's a lot of great shows now.

But again, it's very hard to make a great comedy.

You can make a great, like, mindless entertainment,

like fun show.

Slow horses, that's a great show.

It's a, is that an Apple show?

I believe it is, yeah.

That's another Apple show.

With Gary Oldman, it's a spy of M5, or M5.

What are the M5?

What do they call themselves?

- M5.

- M5.

The numbers, the person, I think, it's the...

- Whatever, I don't know.

- Whatever it is.

- It's a spy show, British spy show.

That's a really good show, it's a M5.

- Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of great shows to watch.

Like, there's, I think it's probably the best time ever

for content if you just want to sit and be entertained.

It's probably the best time ever, because of streaming.

'Cause streaming instead of, you know, one episode,

you're watching a show and it takes place over an hour,

and then the next episode is totally different,

a totally different subject line, different story.

No, it's like the thing, you get locked into these characters,

like, sopranos, I think, was like the first one

to really do that, absolutely.

And drag it out over, you know, many, many seasons.

We have this, like, running storyline.

- Yeah, yeah, it's a, I'm kind of just, like,

tuned out of TV at this point.

I just watch what my girlfriend wants to watch,

and Stranger Things, and it is the thing right now.

- Yeah, I watch the new it show.

- Yeah, I watch the first episode of that, too.

That looks great.

- It's like oddly overlapping with the Stranger Things.

I feel like I'm kind of watching the same show.

- Oh my gosh. - Kind of.

- Like, obviously, totally different overall stories,

but, like, you know, you have kids in these kind of like,

- An evil things.

- And yeah.

- I don't know, like, wreck an episode,

but they mentioned it, not specifically it,

but a story about, like, an extraterrestrial evil being

called it in a Stranger Things episode.

I'm like, this is a weird fucking reference

for these being at the same time right now.

- Yeah.

- Well, they probably didn't plan that out, right?

- Yeah, I don't-- - I don't know, man.

- What is it called, welcome to Derry?

Is that what it's called? - Yeah.

- The new one.

- But it's good.

That's good, too.

- The release date scheduling makes absolutely no sense

for Stranger Things, too.

It's like in batches, and the next batch is coming out

on Christmas.

- And then the final one is new.

- New years?

It's like, the exact times you, like,

probably can't bang out all the episodes or, like,

- Right.

- You're gonna have to force your family to sit there with you,

- It's gonna be on, though.

- What's that?

- That's what high school kids can.

- Yeah, high school kids can.

- It's their vacations.

- Well, I think Stranger Things is so big,

they could fucking make it so you can only watch it

at three o'clock in the morning,

and it would still get 30 million views.

- But, like, just such a weird choice, I don't know.

- Well, it's just weird that it takes so long

to make one of those damn things

that you have to wait three years in between seasons,

and then you have these kids that are playing 15-year-olds,

now they're fucking 30.

- Yeah.

- It's kinda weird.

- You can tell some of them, it's like,

how do you make you look as young as possible?

- Yeah, you give them goofy haircuts,

and then there's also, like, spoiler alert.

There's some computer-generated imaging,

so they're using some sort of an AI program

to make scenes with the kids when they were young,

and you kinda can tell, but you kinda can't tell.

It's like, really good.

- Yeah, yeah, now it is.

It's like, you feel like you can just,

"Hey, I generate the whole thing," but.

- Yeah.

Well, it's getting close, you know,

it's getting to the point where, you know,

there's no excuse for waiting three years

because you could have AI generate scripts

and do it in an hour.

- What about F1, you guys following it all right now?

- The show, or the actual racing.

- No, just the actual racing.

- I went to the F1 that was in Austin, it was amazing.

- This year?

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- It's awesome.

- I think right now, it's the first time in the last 15 years,

they've had three drivers coming down to the final race

to win the championship between them

and the final races this weekend.

- Oh, really?

- Yeah, it's like, where is it?

- I think it's in Abu Dhabi, I don't know.

That might have been the race that just happened,

but it was nuts, dude.

It's, 'cause right now, you had McLaren

who was like a shoe in to have their main driver,

or at least the guy who was in the lead, take it,

but they're refusing to favor one over the other,

which is a typical strategy for whoever's in the lead.

You'll have the other one kinda like block people for them

to make sure they win the drivers championship.

- They're refusing to do that?

- Yeah, they're like making sure

they can have equal opportunities to win,

but the net result might now be none of them win,

and a guy from Red Bull takes the thing.

- Oh, that's crazy.

Is it because the drivers aren't willing to do that?

- I guess, but also just lack of enforcement

from the pit boss like Team Guy,

who's like supposed to be enforcing team principles

and whatnot.

- It is kind of funky that that's how you win.

- Yeah, it's a team game.

- I mean, there's not, there's team generated points

between the two drivers,

which can result in the like team championship,

but the thing that most people actually care about

is who's the best driver in the world,

and that will be coming down to one person,

even if it's a guy from a team that won the thing.

They're still competing against each other,

and sometimes they can get pretty reckless

where there, you know, one is not willing to compromise,

and he'll like blow the whole thing up

to make sure that he has the best opportunity,

understandably, but it's also like,

you guys are getting paid tens of millions of dollars,

and maybe you should listen to your fucking guy

who's telling you what to do.

- This is an ad for BetterHelp.

The holidays come with a lot of traditions,

gathering with family, cooking those once a year recipes,

and leaning into the little rituals

that bring everyone together.

That's something I always look forward to,

Even if that first match isn't a good fit,

you can easily switch to another therapist.

This December, start a new tradition

by taking care of you.

Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre.

Yeah, I get it, but then again, if you're on another team,

you're like, "Well, this is kind of bullshit,

"because this guy didn't really win the race,

"he won the race because his friends blocked everybody."

Yeah, sure enough, but I mean, like, part of it is kind of like that.

That's like part of the strategy.

Oh, I get it.

I get it, but maybe we should have been in that strategy,

'cause if it is a race, I guess it's just problematic,

'cause it's not a race.

It is a race, I guess it's just problematic,

'cause it's so bandwidth-intensive to manage the two drivers

that if they're equally trying to win

and only one is more likely to,

what may very well happen on this weekend

is they both don't win.

Interesting.

Yeah, so I got a tour of the McLaren pit last year,

and they showed me like all the different technology

that's involved, and they gave me a rundown of how much engineering

is involved in these things and explained everything.

It's crazy.

They're all just trying to shave tenths of seconds out of turns,

and then it all accumulates over the course of the race.

Yeah, it's like pretty psychotic

when you look at what the differential is

and kind of like what really separates these guys,

it's often just like minuscule amounts,

and just like the littlest mistake, you know?

What are those guys on?

That's what I wanna know.

Do they test them?

They are tested, but not to the rigor of like an Olympic.

Do they test them for a gorilla mind?

I'm sure they're probably using it.

This is probably a good thing for them to take.

Probably for something that's not banned, yeah?

But is any of this stuff banned, do you think?

No.

None of it.

This is all like very straight edge,

like really tried and true new tropics

that work through kind of like endogenous pathways

or things that there was backfill neurotransmitters

similar to like the creatine deficiency

that we talked about.

If you backfill it and you can otherwise, you know,

have a readily available source of phosphocreatine

to offset ATP deficits,

L-tyrosine stuff like that,

similar just in regards to dopamine, for example.

I'm an hour in and I feel it's legit.

Yeah, it's very legit.

And again, it's very delicious.

So congratulations on that.

Oh, thank you.

Those guys lose a ton of weight too during those races.

Oh, dude, so much water loss.

'Cause you're fucking hot as shit in those suits

'cause you don't burn alive if you crash.

Yeah, so new different strategies like hyperhydration,

using things like liquid glycerol

could be impactful to retain more water.

They wear a diaper.

I don't know, but how long is the race?

Um, it could be, I think it depends,

but it's like upwards of an hour, an hour and a half.

So.

Yeah, just piss yourself.

Yeah, just sit in your own pee for an hour and a half.

Yeah, you would have to.

I would imagine with that kind of money on the line,

just fucking let it go, baby.

Yeah, I don't even know if you'd have to though,

if you're just perspiring like a motherfucker.

They come out drenched.

Right.

Yeah, and they've lost.

That's good point.

But sometimes in the sauna, I have to pee.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, sometimes I'm like 15 minutes into a sauna session.

I'm like, god damn it, I can't hold it.

So I gotta open the door and go out and piss outside

and climb back in again.

Have you ever tried glycerol for hyperhydration?

No, what is that?

It's just like straight up glycerol.

It's like a sugar, but it also has a hyperhydrating effect.

They can hold upwards of an extra pound of body water

if you have it as a supplement.

So some endurance athletes will use it before events

in order to retain more water in a way that is not.

It enhances like thermal regulation,

your ability to tolerate stress.

You don't lose, you don't dehydrate as fast.

There's a lot of upsides for it's kind of like a unique application.

Maybe even avoiding pissing at nighttime.

It could be really potentially, yeah.

Oh, that would help because I always have to pee.

Yeah, one thing that helps me is sauna before bed though.

Sauna before bed, I can generally sleep through the night.

Oh, yeah.

So I'll do like a session about an hour before I go to sleep

and no water after that.

Oh, yeah.

That usually does it.

Yeah, if you don't water cut off,

that's like pretty regimented.

It's probably the best overall strategy.

As long as you make sure you hydrate in the morning.

So I'm pretty diligent about that.

First step in the morning, amino acids with water.

I do that 99% of the time.

Like first thing, before coffee, before anything.

Can you put electrolytes in it?

Yeah, yeah.

I take a Gary Brekka stuff.

It's called perfect aminos.

It's aminos and electrolytes.

I get that in first thing in the morning.

Just, you know, get it out of the way.

And I didn't used to do for the longest time.

I would just hit the gym right away

and just drink water when I was in there.

But I feel a difference.

What about, I thought step one was cold plunge.

Yeah, it depends.

I haven't cold plunged in the last three weeks

'cause I got some stem cells.

And I'm still saunaing.

So it seems like there's a lot of controversy about this

in terms of like what you should

and shouldn't do post stem cell injection.

I have a very minor Achilles tear

when I was elk hunting in September.

I twisted my ankle pretty bad.

And I didn't think anything of it.

I stopped limping after like 15 or 20 minutes.

And I was like, I think I'm okay.

And I was wearing, at the time,

I was wearing very light boots.

They're like, you know, just a real light boot

that you wouldn't do for heavy mountain trekking.

And we did some steep elevation.

And then the real problem is going down.

And you know, when you're going down

like several thousand feet over the course of like an hour.

It's fucking brutal.

And I twisted one of my ankles.

And then the next day I put on a much higher

more rigid boot with great ankle support.

And that was fine for the rest of the trip.

But then, you know what?

That's the fucking worst.

You just gotta like stare at the ground

the entire time you're walking

'cause the littlest off step,

you just roll your ankle or--

Not with that, you could die.

Yeah, you know, you could die.

It's, we were in pretty steep country in Utah.

But interestingly, I didn't notice anything was wrong

until I'd get into a push-up position, which is weird.

So when, you know, I do 100 push-ups every morning,

100 push-ups, 100 bodyweight squats.

That's my warm-up before I do anything.

And so when I got into like a high push-up position

with like my butt up in the air,

it's a lot of stretching on the Achilles.

And my left Achilles was fucking killing me,

like sharp pain.

I was like, fuck, this hurts.

And I thought maybe it needs to stretch out.

So I did some like jump rope, doesn't bother me.

Jump rope doesn't bother me.

Nothing else bothers me.

But that position bothered me.

And it was bothering me for like five weeks.

And I was like, oh, I gotta get this looked at

because it seems like it might be getting worse

every time I do that.

And so I got it scanned and there's a minor tear

and my Achilles and Achilles' tears

are a fucking nightmare.

You know, if you blow out your Achilles,

that's a nightmare.

It's a long rehabilitation process.

Blood flow to the area.

Especially at 58.

It's a fucking, that's a long recovery.

I'm like, I'm looking at a year

before I could do everything again.

Then you lose all your gains, all your cardio gain,

everything, you can't move, right?

It's your fucked.

So I got a stem cell shot in there.

And there's a lot of debate about when you should

be able to cold plunge after stem cells.

And a lot of the literature seems to say three months.

It doesn't seem to think sauna,

there's more indication that sauna

is probably therapeutically beneficial for the stem cells

because the idea is that these stem cells

are still in the area trying to heal the tissue.

When you cold plunge, you kill them.

But when you're doing sauna,

you're increasing blood flow and it might help them.

So what they said is like,

I wouldn't do anything for a couple weeks, nothing.

And then after that, just sauna for a while.

Yeah.

So I haven't done a cold plunge in over a month.

Things excessive, not that scared.

I'm scared to go back in.

'Cause I was so used to it.

Oh, you got to get over the hurl again.

I'm so scared.

Every time I do it, I almost don't do it.

Every fucking time I do it, I almost don't do it.

So like for the past month,

it's just been get up and just workout

and then sauna afterwards.

What's the rehab stack?

Is it any different than what you were already doing

or is it kinda like?

BBC157, TB500.

That's it.

It's definitely improved.

BPC local in the--

Yes.

Achilles?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right there.

Or just pinch the subcure area and come back.

I shove it right in there.

I think local is the way to go.

I've done it subcutaneously, like in the side

and love handles.

Doesn't have the same effect.

Yeah, if you can get it to the area, it's like why not.

Yeah, I think BPC157 locally is the way to go.

But it's definitely getting a lot better.

It doesn't hurt at all anymore.

Yeah, I'm just making sure it fully heals up.

Yeah, interesting note on kinda like the hormone support stuff

this past month, the FDA actually removed

the most of the black box warnings off of women's HRT.

Yes, yes, pretty amazing.

Yeah, really amazing because so many women were lied to

for so long.

They were told that there's all these negative effects

of supplementing your hormones.

But my God, how many fucking people just said

lost quality of life for fucking nothing

for no science at all?

It's just a complete horse shit.

But there's so much bad fucking science out there, man.

Like it's a real problem, it's hot as shit in here.

There's so much bad science out there, man.

It almost gets to a point where you almost have to look

at things through the lens of does this sound like nonsense.

Yeah, well, and then where do you go?

Like who do you trust?

You know, unless you, you're well versed

in who the respectable online people are.

Yeah, like you might see us, you know,

however many studies that say fill in the blank exotic compound

is like totally ineffective.

And it's like, who was it tested on for how long?

What was the dosage, you know?

And like it might be a completely useless interpretation

for your specific nuance scenario.

And if you hear hordes of anecdotes

from everyone in your circle you trust,

who actually knows what they're talking about,

has been in the trenches, knows their body well.

You can't really ignore that.

What was the narrative about female hormones?

And why did they, why did they do that for so long, do you know?

So I think it was in the 90s, the Women's Health Initiative

were assessing the viability and safety profile

of hormone replacement therapy.

And I might butcher this a little bit,

but in general the, you know,

overall context is relatively accurate.

I'm sure, and it was like of the 1000 women or something

that they tested HRT, which HRT put in air quotes

'cause like, not even like human bioidentical estrogen,

it was like equine horse-piss-derived estrogens.

Horse-piss?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was like literally the most synthetic, you know,

animal-derived shity estrogen that is not bioidentical at all,

and also a synthetic progestin that is not bioidentical

to progesterone, it's just like a progestinant analog

essentially that fulfills activity at the receptor,

but is otherwise like, you know, the equivalent of putting you

on like a microdose of nandrolone or a microdose

of, you know, fill in the blank progestin derived compound

or 19-nord derived compound that facilitates

progestogenic activity, but just is not progesterone.

So it's like to try and say, you know,

this horse-piss-derived estrogen formula

and the synthetic progestin we apply to these women

is the equivalent of you having been on what you would

otherwise produce as a young healthy, vibrant woman

from a bioidentical estrogen dial

and progesterone perspective, simply not accurate,

but that's like essentially the comparison that they made

and, you know, presented it as such.

And the result was a relative risk increase

of breast cancer incidence, I believe,

to the tune of like one of a thousand women,

and the absolute number was like three of a thousand

the placebo arm had breast cancer incidence,

and then I think four of a thousand had breast cancer,

so then the media ran with a 26% increase in risk.

And everybody got panicking.

- Yeah.

And like I might be misinterpreting one or two variables,

but like high level that's essentially what it was

and it caused mass hysteria and panic

and basically dictated the facilitation

of black box warnings being put on hormone therapy,

so the most aggressive FDA warning that shows

basically any clinician that's looking at it

or anybody who's gonna like take the risk of using it,

this is the most dangerous drug you could use

with the highest risk of like lethal side effects potential.

And then on top of that,

it just like wasn't representative

of what is actual replacement therapy

with what is the hormone you would be producing naturally.

So for years, you know, we went thinking,

oh, it's gonna cause clotting issues,

it's gonna cause cancers, it's gonna do this,

it's gonna do that.

And only in the most nuanced edge case scenarios

is it justified because, you know,

that person just absolutely has a quality of life

to deterioration is so significant

that it's worth it to take the risk to use

or hormone replacement therapy.

And it's like now similar to some of the like common sense

interpretation of things, like this doesn't make sense.

Look at all this literature showing

the cardio protective effects showing,

the neuro protective effect showing the bone support

and integrity, like what you lose

if you don't take these hormones,

like you're essentially giving yourself

a worst quality of life inevitably

and deteriorating your health unquestionably

with men, there is some semblance

of residual activity you can maintain

and some men maintain vibrant, you know,

reasonable testosterone production to old age,

but with women, it's kind of like,

like right when the lights shut off.

- Yeah.

- You've dropped off a cliff.

- Yeah.

- It's interesting how the initial narratives

get stuck in the public zeitgeist forever.

Like the initial narrative for testosterone replacement

was you can get testicular cancer, prostate cancer.

And it was just, it's so many people like,

I don't wanna mess around with testosterone replacement

because I can get cancer.

And then bring a viewer, explain that study

and explain the real results of that study.

And it's like, it didn't show that anybody

got prostate cancer from it, it's just not true.

- Yeah, and it's like, even the mechanism

by which they argue it would cause it

doesn't even make mechanistic sense

'cause it's like the only way you're going to increase

the prostate growth is via bringing,

and it's like, of course, when you use hormones

that are endrogens, like you're gonna grow tissues

that they're exposed to,

but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing necessarily.

And if you're a hypogonadal male who has low T

and it goes up to just the threshold

of barely acceptable, that's where the growth essentially stops.

And if you go beyond that into like, medium, normal,

high, normal, even super physiologic territory,

your prostate doesn't linearly grow in exposure.

Otherwise, bodybuilders would have massive prostate

like busting out of their bodies.

- Giant dick, man, I don't think.

- We wish, didn't have it.

- Well, how come it grows in large clitorisces in women?

- Because the physiology is essentially interchangeable

in that you could have gone in any direction

dependent on your exposure to these hormones.

- Oh, right, it's not.

- Yeah, so if a man exposes himself

the significant amounts of estrogen

and has hormone deprivation,

there are some irreversible anatomical changes,

because they've already matured that will not go away.

But with women, it's the inverse

and you could otherwise get closer to that extreme scenario

where your, once your voice box gets you

a certain anatomical development,

you can't necessarily go back to your high pitch.

- Yeah, that's a real problem.

- With D-transitioners, they keep that voice forever.

And the real problem is it never even becomes a man voice.

It just becomes weird.

- You know what I mean? - Yeah, it's like the end between.

- Trans men never develop a voice like Isaac Hayes.

- Yeah, that's one of the top things with HRT too

is like as much as I think it's so amazing

that it's being educated about

and there's widespread attention

being brought to the importance of it.

There's also the cowboy docs who almost go

to the hyper extreme of optimization

and are putting women on aggressive dosages

and testosterone saying, you've been lying too.

This is actually what you need to feel good.

And for a woman who's been asexual for years

and feels has no energy

and they are told this guy is the cutting-edge doc

who everyone sees, they will probably trust his guidance.

And as early as before, I started Marick Health,

which is my company.

My mom was getting hormone therapy guidance

from a doc who was relatively well-respected

and the dose he put her on of testosterone

was so aggressive that her voice was changing within weeks.

And I had to like cut the cord on it.

I was like, what the hell is this?

And her testosterone levels were like in the like 300 plus.

- Whoa!

- Yeah, so like you're essentially low normal

healthy male territory, not like actually,

but like on a clinical reference range

and absolutely potential for masculization.

- Yeah, and also horny as fuck.

- Potentially.

- Yeah, but it's like you didn't need to go there

probably to get to horny as fuck.

- My wife has a friend who got on it

and she's a British lady and she had a very funny phrase.

She goes, his stuff makes me feel like a bloke.

(laughing)

She goes, I'm horny like a bloke.

(laughing)

- And testosterone can be helpful in women for sure

and it's overlooked hormone that is absolutely important

in women just the same as it is in men.

It's just like you gotta kinda know what you're getting

yourself into too.

- Remember when it comes to like what is reasonable

for a doctorate to tell you you need

and at what like concentrations you should expect

blood level targets to be?

'Cause if you just go and blind,

you might end up with the most exotic,

you know like Beverly Hills doc who thinks you should be on

like the craziest cocktail ever.

'Cause he knows you're gonna feel it

and respond really, really well immediately

but then also might just like fuck you up permanently.

- Well, this is also the problem with transitioners

when you're becoming a trans man, right?

The initial impact is you alleviation of anxiety

and euphoria, you start feeling great

because that's what testosterone does for you.

It doesn't mean you're supposed to have that.

Your body's going, what the fuck is this?

And now you're essentially,

you're changing the whole cocktail of your body

and you're, you know,

and you're gonna give permanent changes

that if you make a decision when you're 14, 15 years old,

they put you in this stuff.

Those de-transitioners are some of the saddest stories man

because they've become sterile.

They'll never have children and you know,

they lose their tits 'cause they go to a doctorate

thinks you should have your mammary glands chopped off

when you're 15.

- That's fucking, we're in the weirdest of times

with all this stuff.

Because it's like what gets accepted and not accepted

and what, you know, what, again, like we were talking about

the zeitgeist when a thought gets out there

and then it's very difficult to move away from that.

And it's like, oh, you're affirming your true self.

Like really with synthetic hormones

that didn't exist in your body before,

that's your true self.

Are you fucking sure?

It sounds like this might be a social contagion.

It's like sweeping through the land

and one of those things is really interesting

is the drop off of kids identifying as trans

is it coincides directly with Elon buying Twitter.

- Oh wow.

- Yeah, like immediately when you,

'cause you used to not be able to talk about it.

You used to literally, if you,

if you dead name someone from Twitter,

meaning like if you changed your name to Dominique

and I call it Derek, I could get banned

from Twitter for life forever.

Just by using your old name.

Like if I called Bruce Caitlyn Jenner Bruce,

I would get banned from Twitter for life.

- Damn.

- 'Cause not.

But it's like this very bizarre social contagion,

this weird mind virus that went through the whole country.

And everybody just signed up for it.

Like and no one wanted to be a bigot.

So like, oh, I don't want to be a bigot.

- Yeah, I think as much as I think,

it's access to drugs is super.

Like you should have the full liberty to do whatever you want.

That's where the importance of educating yourself

is so critical 'cause you really don't know

what you're subjecting yourself to.

If you have an immature brain too, you have not.

It's even had full like frontal lobe development

to try and think you're gonna make a sound decision

with how you're gonna impact your lifelong physiology.

It's like probably.

- You can't even have a tattoo.

It's not even legal to get a tattoo

and you get your penis removed.

It's fucking crazy.

It's fucking crazy.

Oh, they know, some people know as early as three.

I've had conversations with people on this podcast.

I have friends that have trans kids

and they knew right away.

Are you sure they didn't have a fucking insane mother

and a gay child?

'Cause that might be what was going on.

And now this gay child will never have an orgasm again

'cause you've convinced them that not a gay child,

that they're a woman,

and which is in fact completely homophobic.

- Yeah.

Yeah, interesting, extreme of the scenario,

but maybe on the opposite is guys who are in their,

in adolescence who are so hypereducated

that they use the knowledge to biohack their development

into becoming as maximally tall

and like infrastructurally sound as adults as possible.

- Right, right, right.

- And that's really interesting predicament

'cause it's like any like a recently ethical doctor

will be like, there's no fucking way

I'm touching that like case of any overseeing anybody's care.

What's he doing that kind of thing?

- I was watching a podcast about this

where this guy was talking about his son

and he's short and his son is short.

His son's friends were also short

and their parents got the kid on growth

when they grew like a lot bigger than the parents.

Which is Alexander Karellen.

Do you know Karellen's story?

They call him the experiment.

He's the freakiest wrestler that has ever existed.

- I know who it is, but I don't know that.

- Specifically he was in adolescence

that he was subject to that.

- Well, this is speculation on my part, probably.

- If you've seen my photo that I have out in the gym,

the photo that I put up to remind myself

of what a pussy I really am.

- Is that when he's like about to fucking toss that thing?

- He's not got that picture, that one.

- Yeah, that's the famous one.

- That guy was 300 fucking pounds and moved like a cat.

Like unbelievably mobile and flexible

and had like an insane record.

I think it was like 280 and one or 280 and two.

Like fucking insane.

Like one of the most dominant wrestlers of all time.

But there's, they call him in Russia, they call him the experiment.

And you see his parents, his parents are like five, five, seven,

like small people and he's this fucking behemoth of a person.

And of course, the Soviet doping program is legendary.

The movie Icarus highlights that, you know,

but everybody knew about that.

The Eastern block wait lifters, the females,

they set records that were never broken again.

These were completely became men.

You know, like there's, there's a lot of evidence

that they were doing that to their athletes.

The fact that they wouldn't do it

to their most dominant wrestler in the history of the fucking sport

and the guy who was the absolute biggest freak

in the history of wrestling.

Like there was nobody like that guy.

- Yeah, we should talk about some of the Russian drugs.

I heard you bring up Trim Taz and even somebody the other day.

But before that, have you ever heard of the Lionel Messi story?

- No.

- Okay, so did you know that he was destined to be a dwarf

if he didn't get on huge amounts of growth hormone?

- Really. - Yeah, so he got supplied

with pharmaceutical growth hormone by the team

that was trying to get him to basically be with them.

- Well, he's a small guy as it is, right?

- Yeah, so he grew to what is otherwise

an acceptable adult height, but he otherwise was destined

to be literally a dwarf, whatever the social acceptable term is.

- Wow.

- Yeah, so they either paid for his pharmaceutical growth hormone

and admitted, like got it for him, paid for it, major he was taking it

or he didn't become the greatest some argue,

you know, the football player of all time.

- Well, it's also you have to take any consideration,

like how much of effect do that have on his performance?

- I mean, it's actually two things that no one else can do.

- Well, he definitely wouldn't have grown to the height he is.

- But it's not just the height.

It's the explosive movement, his ability to change direction

like better than anybody.

- The infrastructure is obviously supporting of it.

I don't necessarily know.

Yeah, it would be impossible to like really quantify

that there's no like, you know, a, b test of it.

- Right.

- Right, there's no placebo controlled trial.

- But you know, it's twin to it.

- He would not be even playing for it.

- Wow, I did not know that.

- Yeah, it's probably one of the most overlooked,

but wild cases of a professional athlete

who like needed to go like full board to the tits.

- But it comes to old, was he when they did that too?

- Like a young teen, if not a child.

- Seeing 11 years old.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- Yeah.

- It was like you either take this at the dose

that is going to like push you to, you know,

maximal IGF1 output territory

and we get you to as high of maturation as possible

or you're not gonna be a professional player.

- How tall is Messi now?

- Five, seven.

- Wow.

That's crazy.

Well, you know, I told you the old Romero story, right?

- Probably.

- Yellow Romero is the biggest athletic freak

I've ever seen in my life.

And I've seen a lot of athletic freaks.

Like, yeah.

Yellow Romero, when he, I believe it was in Australia,

he was fighting and after the fight,

goes to a doctor, get checked up.

He had a fractured orbital, he had, you know, rough fight.

The doctor examines him and then says to the UFC,

where did you get this guy?

- Yeah.

- I tell you this?

- Yeah, and they go, hey, he's great, right?

He goes, no, no, his tendons and his eyes

are three times the size of a normal person.

- Oh, right, right.

- They say his orbital bone is already healing.

- It's crazy.

- Like, what do they do to him?

'Cause he was on the Cuban Olympic program.

- Yeah.

- You know, and the way he talks about it,

like the program was like so regimented.

In fact, they had tears of athletes

and the highest tier eight, three times a day.

The tier below that eight, two times a day.

So it motivated you literally to get more food,

to compete, and you're competing with these guys

that their entire life is wrestling.

That is everything, and it literally can feed their family.

It's a matter of whether or not their family gets food,

whether it changes your social status,

and he goes, and because of that, you become a machine.

- That's how he's saying it.

- I can do a good yellow.

- You become a machine.

And he's the biggest freak of all time.

In fact, everybody who fights him says hitting him hurts.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Robert Whitaker said, it's like hitting metal.

He goes, dude, he's like, hit the guy.

He doesn't feel like a normal person.

He goes, it's like, you're hitting metal.

- He's still competing, but in, was it one?

- Dirty boxing.

His dirty boxing was his latest one.

He's almost 50, jacked as fuck.

Now he's a heavyweight, full six pack, almost 50 years old,

fucking gigantic.

I mean, now he's got to be geared up.

I mean, I would imagine,

because he's in these like fringe leagues that, you know.

- You think.

- Their drug test is a fucking multiple choice.

(laughing)

What do you want?

- I'm on Jesus.

- He had that famous speech.

He was saying, don't forget about Jesus.

He goes, don't forget Jesus.

And everybody thought he was saying, no gay, Jesus is not gay.

And so they thought he was homophobic.

And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, for gay, Jesus.

He's saying, don't forget Jesus.

Like, Jesus is important.

And everybody's like, oh my God,

Yoel Romero used his platform to say homophobic things

after a fight.

No, he can't speak English very well, you know.

And he's religious.

- I feel like, yeah.

- That guy, he, I always felt like if you just kind of

like threw himself into the fire more,

he could just like crush it.

- The problem is cardio.

When you're carrying around that much weight, you know,

first of all, wrestling, his wrestling was above

and beyond anybody else.

- But he was just like, slug when he didn't need to.

- Well, they get in love with knocking people out,

first of all.

And that guy's explosive capacity was,

he knocked out Chris Wybman, one of the fucking

scariest flying knees I've ever seen in my life.

It was a great fight up until the moment

he put Chris Wybman into the shadow realm,

but he hit him with his flying knee, just explode.

He loves you.

So what is your other side?

- He's tired or whatever.

- That he jumps on you and his ability to close the

distance is so, it's like, you think about wrestlers.

Like, did you see Bone Nichols last knockout?

- He knocked out Adolfo Vierro with a head kick.

- Oh yeah.

- It was spectacular.

But what Bone Nichols and Elite wrestler,

they're like a top shelf blue chip wrestler.

And one of the things that wrestlers have

is this ability to close distance,

because they're, you know, they're on the outside

and they can just shoot doubles.

So that explosion naturally lends itself to closing

the distance and striking.

Because, you know, it's the same kind of thing.

If you develop good striking.

And Adolfo Vierro, who's like, fuck, it's super jacked,

but he's a Gigi Jiu Jitsu.

Gigi Jitsu is all about strength and control,

technique as well, but it's a tight game.

It's not a game of like jumping, moving across distance quick.

It's a game of they're gripping each other.

And then, you know, it's a lot about strength

and it's a lot about technique,

but it's not about closing distance.

So Adolfo Vierro is like a plotting,

like really super jack guy.

And Bone Nichols just lied on his feet moving on the outside

and just closing distance, cracking him, getting out.

And he hits him with his fucking bomb head kick

and puts him to sleep.

But it's that ability to close the distance.

Nobody did that better than Yo-L.

Yo-L was the best at that.

'Cause he's just fucking unbelievable athlete.

And with Izzy, he fought Israel out of Sanya

and Izzy said, dude, I had to stay on the outside

with that guy.

I could not just go after him

because the counters would come so fast.

Yo-L caught him with a big left hand early in the fight.

And he was like, oh, we'll fuck this.

He's like, we're gonna make this a boring fight.

I'm just gonna win a decision on this motherfucker

because it's just the consequences

of being too close to him where he can do that.

It's just, you have to fight a technical fight

with that guy.

Stay on the outside, pick Adam, move a lot,

don't set your feet ever.

Never be in a place where he can just like,

because he can just launch on you and blast you.

- Yeah, on the flip side of that,

on the leaping in the middle weight of Chimaya, ruthless to watch.

- That was like the most painful fight I've seen recently.

- Oh yeah, the trick is duplicity fight.

Yeah, well that's just levels and levels above everyone else.

- There's like closing distance

even when you know what it's about to come.

- Can't stop it, yeah.

- Once he gets his hands on you, you're fucked, yeah.

There's something about that kind of wrestling

from the Chechens and the Dagestanis.

And maybe even him more than any of the other ones

is it's just so aggressive.

And he chains things together so well.

And if you're not training with guys like that,

like Shob told me that he went to see Chimaya,

when Chimaya is in training camp for Dracostuplici.

And he called me up, he goes, dude, listen to me.

He goes, like, Shob was a top 10 UFC heavyweight.

He's been around forever.

You know, he was in camp with George St. Pierre,

when George St. Pierre was in his prime, Nate Markhart,

when Nate Markhart was in prime, he was like, dude,

I'd never seen nothing like this.

He goes, they were bringing in world-class wrestlers.

And he's fucking ragdolling them.

He goes, he's a freak.

He goes, he's going to fuck Dracostup.

Like, really?

He goes, dude, if he gets a hold of that guy, he's fucked.

Turned out to be 100% accurate.

- Yeah, it was like the most obscene example I've seen.

- His wrestling is obscene.

That's a great way to put it.

His wrestling is obscene.

And if you can't compete, like this one thing that I said

about Dracost, after that fight, was like,

that gap is so wide.

It's like jumping across the Grand Canyon.

You're not going to make it.

Like, you would have to start, you'd have to get a time machine,

go back to the time when you're six

and start wrestling in Dagestan.

Like, you've gotta have those kind of skills

to compete with that guy.

Only an elite wrestler who can also strike

is gonna be able to fuck with that guy.

Unless he gets silly and decides to strike

with someone and they KO him.

Other than that, I just can't see anybody.

Fuckin' with that guy.

- Yeah, I mean, I guess it needs somebody stylistically

to match up to really--

- Bo Nickle. - Yeah.

- Bo has to grow as a fighter.

He has to grow as a fighter, and he's doing that.

I mean, he's an unbelievably dedicated and disciplined guy.

And if anybody can do it, he can do it

because he's got that elite wrestling.

Like, if they had a wrestling match, it would be fantastic.

But Chemiah is a much better striker right now.

At least has been up until this last fight with Vier,

which was a huge knockout.

But Vier was kind of a standing target for Bo.

- What did you think of the Usman positive test result?

Kind of interesting.

- Oh, the bigger Usman, his brother.

- Yeah, duh, that's a duh.

He's fucking easy.

- I'm a, yeah, I mean--

- It's unfortunate, you know,

because the heavyweight division is so devoid of talent.

Yeah. - Gabel Steven is the fucking guy.

- Yeah. - That's the guy.

That's the guy.

He's not even in the UFC yet.

I mean, Olympic gold medalist, fucking freak athlete,

250 pounds, moves like a cat.

That's the guy that he's, I sent a text message to Dana White.

I sent him a video of Gabel's last fight.

I said, everyone's fucked.

Everyone's fucked when this guy comes out.

He caled this guy with a left hand.

He caled this guy with a left hand,

and then took him down as he was knocked out.

Watch this knockout, 'cause it's so fucking crazy.

The speed that this guy has, first of all,

really good striking already,

and he's only been striking for like a fucking year.

But watch, when he chaos this guy,

he hits him with a punch, boom,

and then takes him down. - Ooh.

Jesus. - Dude, everyone's fucked.

And then just, well, I mean, that's just nuts, man.

That kind of speed is nuts for a heavyweight.

- Yeah. - Look at that left hook.

Boom, take some down, smash.

And then-- - That's like a video game combo.

- Exactly, and he can do backflips and shit.

When he fought in dirty boxing, he knocks the guy out,

and then he leaps over the top rope and lands on the apron.

Just leaps over the top rope with, like, effortless.

Freak.

Just so real freak.

And again, just watch this chaos.

When he chaos this guy, but first of all,

this guy has no business being in there with him.

But this is just boxing.

This is what they call dirty boxing.

Boom, so you could ground and pound guys.

- So it's just like the modern D.C. sort of?

- Oh, he's maybe even better and bigger, a lot bigger.

- So you see how he jumped over that rope?

Watch that again. - Super athletic,

but, like, doesn't kind of unassuming.

- Exactly.

Well, I mean, not really unassuming.

He's a fucking house man.

He just doesn't-- - Whoa.

I mean, he's a body fat.

- Yeah. - But we'll kind of jumped over that rope.

- Oh, yeah, when you see that, of course, it's fine.

- Watch that, just show that again.

- Yeah, I was insane.

- Well, look at the effortless--

Look at just effortless, leaps over that fucking--

That's like five feet.

He just jumps over, like, it's nothing.

- And after fighting.

- After fighting, but literally with no effort,

just hops over it like it didn't exist, lands perfectly.

He's a freak man, and he's training with John Jones,

and he's training with some of the best fighters,

and he's trying to fight every month.

He's trying to get as much experience as he can

before he gets into the UFC.

And he's coming, and everybody's in trouble.

- How old is he?

- 25.

- How old is he?

- They're all fucked.

Everyone's fucked.

I mean, everyone is fucked.

Because there's no, other than John,

there's no one that can wrestle with that guy in that sport.

And the thing about a guy who can wrestle like that,

is if he can strike like that,

the problem with wrestling is you're always worried

about the takedown, so that opens you up to strikes.

Because you're always like, every faint

you're thinking is gonna shoot for your legs,

but then boom, he catches you with a left hook.

And the speed that guy has, it's like a lethal combination.

Of athleticism, speed, power, size,

and an insane wrestling pedigree.